I'm a Boxer. Who Thinks Boxing Is a Martial Art, and Who Doesn't Here?
Plain and simple. I have practiced Kung Fu for 4 years, reached Blue Belt, which was the 'Cat Style'. They we're good times, I enjoyed it, and doing it since I was young helped me get into and stay into fitness very early. After 4 years though, I started getting a bit bored, and also, all the 'brain washing' stuff started to freak me out. Sorry if it offends anyone, It's just that, I'm a simple dude, christian, and couldn't go and do that meditation stuff every month with the master and all those weird things, though I still respect them anyhow.
Anyways, I went to gym for a while a couple years after stopping Kung Fu, but guess what I got tired of that too after 3 months, didn't stimulate me.
I always knew that what I really wanted was to Fight. We only had No contact fights at Kung Fu, and that never really satisfied me.
Since I stopped gym I started a workout routine at home, and that was great, I realized how amazing self discipline can be, all I need is my own body weight and discipline, and I got into a great routine that kept me very fit, added running to it, and evenetually, I bought my own Heavybag, which was what introduced me to 'boxing' in a way. had it about 2 years, enjoyed it a lot, really pounded it when I was mad, it became a friend and a personal trainer lol and I learned by my own mistakes how to throw punches correctly.
Anyhow, in the end I decided I really wanted to start a sport again. I always play fight at the beach, and generally I just like fighting with friends andywhere I can lol it stimulates me and I learn new techniques and stuff or simply gain experience. (I've also had street fights don't worry, I'm not a wussy at all, and nor I'm a Boaster, for example, I admit last summer I got beat down by a totally unexpected single right hook to my head by a guy a bit older than me, yet much shorter but pretty bulky, that's when I learnt that I was too polite to people and will never let that happen Again, Never, and definitely, **** the pushing, get to the knuckles.)
Anyhow, I was going to do Muay Thai, but in the end I chose Boxing. Been going for nearly 2 months now, but I feel like I've been doing it much longer, just not officially ^_^ first day I joined, the trainer put me aside to 'teach me the basics', about 20 seconds later, after I threw a few jabs and right hands, he said, mate, just get with the group I can see you've done this before lol that was encouraging.
Haven't had any fights yet, It's early, but sparred a little, and I'm loving everything about boxing, the great physical form it gets you in, and the fighting. So it looks like maybe I finally found my way.
After this story, I wanted to now, why is there such a debate all over the internet wether Boxing is a martial art or not???
And also, I hate when people compare martial arts too much, people should realize that a BIG part of any fight, street fight or official, is about the ATHLETE, the person. Not just what Art he practices. All this bull**** about boxers not being 'full' fighters is ridiculous. I want to see any muay thai or capoeira dude throwing flying kicks in the street and see what happens once the grasping and **** starts. -.-
What do yall reckon?
Fair warning off the bat, if you don't like criticism, don't read this. Otherwise, feel free. And I won't reply if you give me some PO'd response. Just fair warning, I would like to be civil.
Been training for close to eleven years now, in several different kinds of styles on and off. I can safely say that boxing is a Martial Art, as the very definition of a Martial Art is, and I quote
"Any of several arts of combat and self defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport"
As defined by the dictionary it is, and that's good enough for me. However, that being said its not a combat sport, not practical self-defense or a practical tool that you would use to defend yourself. Boxing is a specific Martial Art. A huge part of the reason why many Martial Artists may not refer to it as a "Martial Art" is likely due to its rooted tradition in sport and competition (Whereas Self Defense applicative combat arts are seen in a different light.)
As a Mixed Martial Artist I think its important to not look at a Martial Art by its face value, but rather by the Martial Artist within the system and the training done with it. I've fought boxers before and some are tough, some are not. I've gotten the bejeezus beaten out of me with 12 oz gloves by a boxer, and its not fun. I've also repeatedly elbowed and kneed boxers in the face. As a Martial Art boxing is definitely limited, while those who train in it enjoy excellent stand up, brawling style training they definitely lack in ground and leg games, a boxer; 100% trained only in boxing will lose against someone who is determined to bring them to the ground and knows their game, but they will win toe to toe against a BJJ Martial Artist.
You still have a lot to learn, and a lot of growing up to do before you're ready to compete in the ring, and I certainly hope; for your sake you don't come across a Mixed Martial Artist (God knows everyone is training these days, thanks UFC) with your attitude. I dislike being judgmental; and I will give you one piece of advice. Be humble, just because you THINK you're good at fighting, and because you can talk a big game doesn't mean you can play a big game.
Go a few rounds with different fighters, of different styles with full contact, no holds barred and then try to come back to the conclusion that Cap or Muay Thai fighters can't perform in a street fight. I had the same attitude when I was training, and when it finally happened and I went toe to toe with a Martial Artist who actively trained in both capoeira and Kung Fu, I got the living **** beat out of me half way to Sunday. It was a real eye opener.
Non-contact sparring also has a lot of value in Martial Arts, it teaches self control and control period. If you can fight non-contact, come within centimeters, even millimeters of hitting an opponent, but know where the sweet spot is to stop; then you are ready to fight. All to often I have seen fighters tear biceps, ligaments etc from power housing a jab only to overextend and fall on the ground screaming. Self control teaches you, physically where your body is; its great for learning where to hit, and how. Without non-contact sparring, you'd be a fish out of water with full contact. Your jabs may not hit effectively due to your range being to far or short, your hooks might flail a bit.
Technique before power always, and never underestimate an opponent. I've seen people from Wrestling backgrounds wipe the floor with Boxers and Karate Ka alike. I've seen Muay Thai trained individuals wreck people with their feet alone. Never take a Martial Art at its face value, its all about what your opponent has put into their training versus you.
Don't forget the mentality, if you aren't prepared to have your face turned inside out; and walk away looking like you went through the sausage grinder at the market then you shouldn't be fighting, likewise if you're not prepared to do the same to someone else. The desire to win, to better yourself should be forefront to everything else.
You've already told me you haven't fought, and yet you are throwing wild assumptions out there about Martial Arts you have zero experience against. Boxers, straight and cut are not full fighters. Boxers are trained to hit with their hands, not their heads, their feet nor are they taught to go to the ground.
If you've ever been in a "Street Fight" you'll know what I talk about when I say "Life isn't fair, so don't fight fair." Rarely will you ever come across someone who fights fair, and if they do you're very lucky. I use Karate as an example. It was designed to be used as a CQC self defense art, a lot of Karate incorporates "Cheap shots". Shots to the groin, to the neck, spitting, stabbing with your fingers to the eye, gouging and hooking. This stuff would get you disqualified and charged in a competition setting. But its a survival Martial Art. If you plan on going toe to toe with two or more guys with just boxing, good luck. You will likely loose if they decide to escalate the situation.
Even the smart Karate Ka knows when to run, avoiding confrontation is the best weapon you have. Acting like you can tough out a knife to the neck isn't; because to often that is where a street fight will go if escalated.
Overall, is it a Martial Art? Yes, it is. Is it practical if you want to go cause **** out in the bar? No, by far it isn't. Is it a great asset to have as a Mixed Martial Artist or a fighter period? Yes; definitely. Boxing is the basis of stand up, every combat sport really does take from it.
In the end, all I would recommend is get some more training and don't get ahead of yourself. It seems to me like you are trying to set the bar high for yourself before you even hit the low mark. I would recommend starting with your attitude and technique first. Clean the slate, don't assume anything about anyone. Always go into a match, or a confrontation assuming you can lose and that you'll fight to the best of your abilities.
Start slow, focus on your control and technique. Shadow box with yourself, and practice non contact on a bag. you don't want to drive your arm into the bag or a person until your extension is nearly complete, and your power comes from the hip, not the arm. All this should become second nature before power comes into affect.
Overall, train smart and train safe. Be a good sport, don't assume anything about anyone and fight clean.
The way I see boxing - A structured fight within rules and regulations (limits) in a controlled environment. But don't get me wrong, I appreciate the conditioning, discipline and training for boxing, and the sport itself.
I'm actually tossing up between starting Wing Chun Kung Fu, Aikido or Boxing. Unfortunately due to a past injury my left shoulder is prone to dislocation.
So I am assuming Aikido is out. What about Kung Fu or Boxing?
If you want to avoid dislocation of a shoulder I'd suggest against boxing, or anything really "upper body" intensive. A lot of punching and strikes rely heavily on shoulder stability. Although, I have known of people recovering by conditioning the affected area. Has a doctor put you through physio at all? Before getting involved with Martial Arts I would suggest consulting a doctor.
Krav Maga is a pretty interesting style, involves a lot of different styles into an effective CQC system. And from what I understand its not completely reliant on power.
Overall, when looking at a Martial Art; look at what you want to get into it for. Do you want to go in for the conditioning; well...That's trainer specific, some schools will teach only the art with no conditioning. Others will do both. If you want to go in to learn self defense, choose something that's oriented around an effective self defense system. If you want traditional oriental, find a traditional school of practice.
It all balances on your wants in terms of a Martial Art
Hi OriJuice, let me Thankyou Hugely for taking time with your fantastic reply :-)
No don't worry, I'm a person with quite a bad temper yes, and dilsike criticism usually, but you're really not the case, you replied so nicely and I really appreciate what you wrote, vey interesting and helpful, indeed I have much to learn and am glad I got to speak with an experienced fighter like you.
So yeah, I'm all for civil debates like this when It's with very mature, intelligent and respectful people like you proved to be, so Thanks.
Now to your reply.
I fully agree with looking at the Martial artIST, point I really like to focus on, instead of all the comparing and **** talking. And I think most smartass people don't realize, or at least, anyone that has never fought, or practised any Martial Art, or has any knowledge of them.
Well, good thing is, the other night I had some more 'play fighting' if so we can call it, with another Amazingly strong new friend of mine, and I can't tell you how glad I am for the experience I get, even when I lose, yes, though losing is the thing that most angers me, now I have more experience.
I fought against this guy that practises 'Sanda', I had never even heard of it, but it was great. He's a pro, but I'll tell you this in all honesty man as everything I said. Overall, I'd have lost 90% if we went all the way, but as for punching, he got hit a lot of times, even a striking uppercut, (my favourite lol) and he admitted one thing I had, was good speed. Though, I begin to know what you mean with 'limited', as he could grab me or kick me very well, though he had a very hard time since I have quite a good balance and all these fancy tricky moves don't work easily on me usually. Anyhow, the fight ended with a huge lump on my head (His elbow) just to make things clear -_-
So, I know I can't speak with your amount of experience, but I'd like to say this, I may be wrong, but I don't care, you proposed like, for me not to find an MMA guy on the ring? Well, if that fighter has done MMA ONLY, then hey, bring it on, I'm not afraid at all. It is quite well known, that the stamina, the precision and technique of a Boxer outdoes a basic MMA fighter. But, it's true, if we get on the floor (Which will most definitely happen) then yes, I'll be in trouble, as on the ground, I am pretty useless, that's one of the fields I lack.
As for a good part of other experiences I had, for a couple of years I've play fought with a good friend of mine, and he's a Judo black belt. Now, let me say, I never managed to ground him fully, always very close, but he's too sly with these things, it's his field. But many times I threw him or injured him, and ofcourse we never used fists, as he wouldn't know where to start. So after fighting this Sanda dude, Judo became much less scary to me, as if I keep distance and box him out, Judo seems to lack some features too IMO, Sanda is lethal, at least, that dude was awesome.
As for kicks and stuff in street fighting, well, whatever, I don't think it's very probable, I just think that you either REALLY know what you're doing, or don't. Muay Thai, is great, I'd still like to do it maybe one day... We'll see... And overall, I box now mainly, but in 4 years of Kung fu I did learn to kick, infact it was mostly kicks I remember.
As for the Bar brawl part, ofcourse, agreed, I mean, overall, there's hardly ever a street fight that sticks to a certain Art, and hardly ever it's fair,yes I know believe me...
I went against two pricks last summer, and one threw me a ****ing helmet, and my thumb is still a bit weird because of that after a year -__-
Indeed, I'm looking forward to the ring, A few more months of training and sparring and I hope my trainer will reckon I'm 'ready'...
Though I admit, I'd go right now if it was for me :P
So thankyou very much for everything, and yes, being Humble and not assuming and underestimating is the best thing, very well said.
Thai Chi is a martial art that represents a boxing match between connectedness, and disconnectedness to the great source.
Good discussion there ya'll
Interesting... Cheers for sharing that ^_^
Originally Posted by flyinfree
Bruce Lee considered boxing a martial art and added counter-boxing (something few oriental martial arts understand) to his Jeet Kune Do from it. It's not a very interesting or varied martial art, but if Bruce Lee thought it was, then it was.
That said, I trained in Muay Thai and strongly recommend it. Pure boxing, no, not at all - it's almost designed to create brain damage.
My name is Noguchi (Actually that is my middle name). I consider boxing a martial art. Though it isn’t really a self-defense or killing (martial) art, it is something where you try to better yourself, your mind and spirit through combat. For me, and many others martial arts has taken a role essential to life and for many boxers it is the same. Martial arts is often referred to as a religion by outsiders and the same could be said for boxing. With all those similarities I can’t see why anyone would disagree aside from just wanting to start a fight.
All the best;
Thanks for sharing the Bruce Lee thing ^_^
Originally Posted by Spartacus Mars
And altough we could debate on the brain damage thing, which is more of an enlarged 'cliche' in my opinion, well after all, you're right. If you do compete in boxing, headgear or not, you will definitely get atleast partial brain damage, but not everyone has to become like Ali, that's what I'm saying, and that's what stupid people think.
Hello dear Nogouchi, I really liked your words, thankyou for sharing sir.
Originally Posted by Noguchi
Boxing is a martial art but as my coach used to make clear to us it is only useful as self-defence against idiots and drunks. Anyone smart enough to see you watching their shoulders for the next move will deliver a swift shin kick or dead leg catching you totally unaware.
I treated boxing as a sport and played it a bit lie chess. Defence first and attack to score the points. I never went for the knockout, because I didn't hate the people in the ring with me. I lost one bout by not going for the knockout, which was the only way I would have beaten him and I could see he was tired enough to have gone down. He taught me a massive amount in the three rounds and I felt that to do so would be disrespectful to a man who was fundamentally a better boxer than me.
I don't do it anymore, and yes I do miss it, but there is no real choice.
Aikido is great for teaching you not to underestimate anyone. This truly is an art where the force your opponent throws at you is what you use against them. When you are being spun around in mid-air by someone half your size who's barely touching you, and you know the force keeping you there is what you put into the punch it's very humbling.
The other thing I remember from these classes was sensei telling us that if you use a weapon in a fight you have to be prepared for it to be used on you. This would be just before disarming practise and he made it very clear what he taught us weren't secrets, millions knew the moves.
I did a lot of travelling and learned a valuable set of three questions to ask before a fight.
Can I talk my way out of this?
Can I walk away?
Can I run away?
Only fight if all 3 answers are no. I have survived by following these rules, and pride myself on having got out of far more fights than I have ended up in.
The TV shows will make people believe that it's always man to man, and groups attack one at a time in a sporting fashion.
Reality is very different and cowards are rarely alone. When one is in front of you giving you abuse, they are not the threat, the group of friends he has behind you are. They will know numbers are only in their favour if they attack at once and if you go down they won't want you to come up.
I have been in a few situations that shows it's important to use your brains first and brawn as a last resort.
One was a situation where a group of basically kids, 16 years old or so decided to follow their friend who spotted me on my own and deemed me a good victim. I looked around seeing that one at a time this would be easy but there were enough to make this unlikely and dangerous. I let the one throwing punches hit with everything but head shots and kept walking toward him, not retaliating. As I walked he backed up for full swings, until he shortly found a wall behind him. He jerked his head to one side and back, I touched his forehead as he faced back to me making his head touch the wall slightly. His friends laughed and I left. I was bruised and sore, but not battered.
Another was where I met a woman who didn't like the rough house type, and thought I was one. As we were walking along the strip after the club to get her back to her car, a drunk decided to attack. I quick side step just before contact saw him tumbling and me getting an arm around me for the walk.
It can often be the case that the very act of getting into the fight means you have automatically lost.
There are better outlets for aggression, and as someone with plenty of it, trust me here. If I need to hit something I get the bag out, it doesn't get me arrested if I win, and I have never won against it yet, it's always upright at the end.
If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you're probably right - Henry Ford
I have been surrounded by the martial arts and boxing all my life. My best friend / adopted brother's family owned a dojo specializing in AMMA and an American branch off of one of the "secrete" ninjutsu schools that came to America in the 80's. My father was an amateur boxer. I never personally took martial arts or boxing seriously until recently when I began to study Gojuryu Karate in Japan and it has fast become a part of my life.
Personally I feel that boxing is a martial art. It evolved from brawling which involved self-defense and protecting yourself and got imbibed with rules and a sense of class in the western world. Though it is not an art with a history of death etc. it does have a code and becomes a way of life for the people who peruse it. Just like Karate the goal is to shape your mind, body and soul and from what I have seen of boxing that is what it does and so it is a martial art to me.
All the best;
Wow, sorry I replied twice!
No Problem man reading more was a Pleasure, thanks for sharing =)
Originally Posted by Noguchi
Plain and Simple question, I really need to know this:
I am trying to bulk up, for a few months I have, and I have succeded a Bit, and I am enjoying my Calisthenics bars routine.
But I want to know, if I start Boxing again, and therefore start sweating so much again with all that cardio, will it influence my Bulk a lot? I am afraid I will lose everything and become super lean again, with only a great visible six pack, but no bulky arms or chest or anything. I don't know... Anyone can give some advice or experience on this?
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