Sorry to not reply for so long and thanks everybody for the replies

I still have a few questions

Aikido can easily be combined with a few striking arts to make it effective and deadly too.
I dont know much about its effectiveness as a combat art but consider a defensive throw against a punch. The attacker throws his punch and stays in an exaggerated lunge position waiting for the master to apply his throw,
now is that practical.
also while the opponent is being maneuvered he willfully submits himself (or so it seems) to the master.

Why should a really aggressive opponent even give a chance to apply a hold. is it possible to apply such techniques when your opponent is busy testing his pugilistic skills on you.

Having done Judo as a sport and Aikido as I practice, I'd comment on the training methods: even in Judo, which is not hard to accept as effective in 'real' fights, when training with fellow members of your dojo it is inherent that they will try to offer as little resistance as possible until your technique is perfect for that level of resistance. If not, as mentioned in earlier posts, students will automatically resort to their strength when they encounter their training partner's resistance.

To offer an analogy: in weight training, if you can't have good form with 5lbs, can you have good form with 50? In order to learn the forms, you have to start with as little resistance as possible as the muscle memory is built.

So, how does this apply to a sensei who of course is well mastered in his/her technique? Why does it still look like the students offer no resistance?

First, I'd invite you to throw yourself at an Aikido sensei sometime

Second, the moment the Uke begins to resist, a student of Aikido changes to meet it. A good way to look at it is to first throw what you think the first law of motion means out the window. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" means I push you push right? Not in Aikido. You push, I pull and guide your energy. This is not a fierce yank or a sharp tug. It is a simple effortless guide.

But that only works if you keep your momentem towards me, right? Isn't any good martial artist going to react himself and pull back?

Of course. So you pull back. Fine, I won't bet sending you toward the horizon in a generally southern direction after all. No, instead, you just bought yourself a ticket on a northbound train

Even in a judo match, you'll see almost imperceptable twitches between the opponents as they dance around the circle, signaliing whose balance is in what direction as the forces work oppositely until BAM - somebody didn't react equally and the opportunity for a throw has presented itself. Viola', IPPON.

Anyway, thats a roundabout way of explaining why it seems students offer so little resistance. They could lock their ankles, lower their hips, throw their weight back to prevent the throw...but the sensie would just throw them in the opposite direction then. As far as an opponent who can use both fists at the same time, there are advanced Aikido techniques for just such the occassion.

And never forget that Aikido is more about neutralizing than winning in the traditional sense. The only victory for a student of Aikido is to have your opponent defeat himself. If you punch, I grab, you hussle back - okay, I just let go. Your attack has been neutralized, I need do nothing more. Until you try to strike again, and the pattern repeats.

an exellent post by gxinfinity

that explanation has cleared my head of all the questions and doubt i have ever had about judo and aikido

may be i've begun to appreciate and respect it as well

hahahahhah

lol, Benny

Children can throw adults in Judo!!

It's mainly to do with technic not strength. Also it is easyer to throw heavier people becauce in Judo you use their weight against them.

Yep even in BJJ I know I outweigh the instructor by probably 40lbs and he is relaxed, calm and rolling me. He also uses a standard sweep (from guard) on 250lb+ guys.

Leverage is key.

Great post gsxinfinity.

Do you do Judo or just know alot about it?

Ive seen it. I am doing bjj and the concept IMO is similar. Small guys can roll big guys.

I agree, BJJ is very like judo if anything its more for big strong people.

LaraCroft Girl why don't you practice Tate Shiho Gatame with me?

Watch it, or I might get you in Gyaku Juji Jime.

A man confronts you in the street, he is your enemy. Your enemy deserves no mercy. Strike First! Strike Hard!

just one problem, atleast in Norway, if you hurt someone bad in self defence, you get troubble. It sucks, but here you actually have to be careful if someone just wants to give you a punch in the face. Kick their ass, break their nose/arm, and you will probobly be facing time.

Most of the people here have really seem to have gotten off the subject, which was the question of how useful judo and aikido would be in a real fight, one's realistic chances of being able to effectively use this in combat as in full-contact, minimum-rules fighting (MMA) as you don't see a lot of these throws. I'm actually going to address this.

I happen to take MMA, including judo. (I've BARELY taken any judo at this point so I'm no expert, but my answer is based on my personal experience with it, what anyone can observe in MMA fights and what my instructor told me.) Judo has its fair share of usefulness in a real fight. However, you're right, there aren't a whole lot of throws in MMA. Hardly any in fact. I asked a guy one day why this is so and he says that throws are hard to set up. Having actually practiced some of these throws a little and have done a little pure judo sparring (I learn the different martial arts separately most of the time, so we don't mix striking and grappling), it is indeed hard. Even in pure judo matches, throws aren't something that happen very easily.

Now, yes, it's true that may be because the other guy knows what to look out for whereas if you just got in a fight with some punk on the street he may be an easier target for this. But even then, you have to be careful with throws because if you miss (fail the throw) and don't react in time to do a different technique for that (it's still possible to throw them by kneeling down instead of doing it from a stand for example) you can land yourself (no pun intended) in a lot of trouble. Think about it. You need to have the person the right distance from you, close that distance correctly, have all the parts of you and them lined up just so and must do this all in a few motions so everything works together to get the person off balance via leverage. There's even less room for error against someone bigger or who weighs a lot more. You have to often turn your back to them so if you miss that throw and they catch you (like you don't "counter" your own missed throw).... Well, I'm sure you can use your imagination.

So basically, it just takes a lot of technique and set-up to throw someone, and in full-contact, minimum-rules fighting, you also have to worry about strikes. It's easier for those guys to use sweeps and takedowns to get the person off balance and on the ground instead. (There are a lot of sweeps in judo but we're concerned with throws specifically, here.) There's less set-up and they don't take as much technique, as well as the fact that if you fail to successfully get them to the ground you're not in as much trouble.

Judo is useful in full-contact, minimum-rules fighting regardless because there's a chance you can use some sort of throw, and there's all the useful sweeps. Judo's all about keeping your balance and making them lose theirs, so that helps a lot in clinches. Oh, and there's also the various ground techniques, many of which are practiced in other martial arts, most notably Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

So in case you're interested in learning some self-defense, I'd recommend taking up MMA with judo as being one of the disciplines included into that. I've seen my instructor spar a bit with his students and he does indeed incorporate judo into his fighting (throws kicking sweeps constantly), quite effectively I might add -- even if he is facing students who are still learning the basics of everything. You'll learn a lot about balance and balance is one of the most important aspects of any hand-to-hand fighting.

As for Aikido, yes, I have my doubts about it myself as in all the videos I've seen of it it just looks like the dudes are throwing THEMSELVES willingly as opposed to being seriously thrown while fully resisting. It looks more like a choreographed act than a simulated combat situation. And, yeah, how many MMA's do you know or have you heard of that have a background in Aikido? So far, I haven't heard of one whereas I have heard of some with judo backgrounds. However, I do like to give all things a chance and think perhaps there might be something to be gained from it, including those throws, so if I ever get the opportunity to study it some maybe I will take it.

But as for your question, I asked my instructor about the usefulness in aikido one time. He said he's studied it (not sure to what extent) and he says it can be useful in a street fight, but in MMA fighting not so much because it requires more distance and the cage/ring is only so big. You might have questions or doubts on this and I'm not too clear on it either but we didn't talk about it that much and that's all he said about it, so sorry for not giving a better answer.

Hope that helps!

P.S. The people here who are talking about being thrown or throwing so-and-so, well, I'd bet money they were all talking about pure judo/aikido sparring, and your question was regarding a real fight where you're allowed to strike your opponent, such as with a punch, as, like you said, in MMA fights you hardly see throws.

[QUOTE=LeiYunFat;73102]What do you mean you don't see fighters using Aikido? Like...UFC? If that's the case, then you don't see much because not many Aikido folks out there aren't cut out for the ring.

They dont use it in the ring because it isnt exactly leagal in that form of fighting. There are many styles that are alot better then what you see in UFC or Pride or any of those competitions, you just never see them because if you realy used them in the ring you would kill your opponent.