I can't help but think that the advice you are getting from these boards are just making you fat. When you "Cut" now, or whatever, you will create a deficiency in calories which will in turn slow down your metabolism even more and can cause you to actually gain weight..

I would probably suggest only putting on lean muscle mass without all the fat, and doing cardio several times a week. Regardless of what a lot of bulkers say, cardio is not "the enemy of muscles" unless you do

1. ridiculous amounts (more than 45 minutes+ of intense aerobic a day)
2. Don't have a proper diet

I promise you, you won't turn into a bean pole by incorporating (much needed) cardiovascular excercises.. You were in a better position before because you could have started to slim down while maintaining the muscle mass you had. The muscle you gained is either very minimal or distracted by the new gut.

Bulking then cutting is not the only way to get your dream body and I swear you can do it without gaining a ton of fat and stunting your metabolism when you suddenly stop the crazy calorie intake...

That new from what I've been hearing. Interesting, thanks!

THis is ridiculous?!
If we were to take your word for it, then any time you create deficiency in calories you would instead be gaining weight instead of losing weight. That's not true, and simply stupid when you think about it. Just because your metabolism drops a little, does not mean that you will immediately put on massive amounts of fat. Besides, metabolism is not controled strictly on a diet. Training has a large deal of influence in it.


a clean bulk that you are suggesting would take much longer than a bulk and cut cycle.

Truth of it is, IWasFatBefore, I think you look like you have alot of muscle under your fat. You will not begin to gain weight when you start a cut, I think that losing weight now would be a good option because in my opinion you have bulked up enough.
It is important to remmeber that you do not simply jump into the cut. You must allow for a couple weeks of slowly tapering down your diet to maintenance, and the starting the deficit.

This whole "cutting now will cause you to actually gain weight" bull **** is stupid. Even if you did simply jump right into cutting (and I am assuming you will continue weight training), the adverse effect would not cause you to gain more weight but to lose mroe muslce in the process of your cut.

When he cuts his metabolism might slow down a bit, it is not a lot though, as long as he stays below his maintenance he will lose weight, most of it being fat. Hiw metabolism will stabilize at a slightly lower level, it is not like it will keep falling until it hits 0.

It is not dangeoraus to do cardio while bulking, however, it is not necessary for minimizing fat gain, either. If you've got any proof of this, please post up!

If you eat for example 500cals above maintenance, you will gain 500cals of tissue that day. How much of that is muscle and how much is fat will predominantly be determined by your training (muscle training) and diet. If you go for a run, you might cut those 500 above maintenance down to 300.
You are now gaining less weight than before. IF of the 500 cals the guy was gaining 300 was muscle and 200 was fat, then you would have reduced the fat gain, however, this could also have been done by just not eating such a large deflict, you could have cut 200cals from the diet instead of by exercise.
Catch my drift?

I think its simply stupid to think you have to put on fat in order to gain muscle, when you think about it.

The trick is to eat a LOT and train with cardio A LOT. That is how you gain lean mass without fat. You guys tend to just make people fat with NEGLECT of cardiovascular. There is more than one way to train and your Bulking + Cutting is popular but not the best of the ways to sculpt a muscular, defined body. Its not "bull****," many people make the mistake of suddenly stopping calorie intake, and many other people have genes that do not support your "easy method." My suggestion is to incorporate cardio into the regiment to decrease fat gains.
Thank you,

Cardio does not gain you lean mass even if you stuff your face. When you do intense weight training with intense cardio, your body will not improve as much in weight training than weight training alone.
A clean bulk is possible, but it would be more efficient and easier to bulk first, while gaining some amount of fat, then cutting. If you are trying to say that cardiovascular training during weight training will not impede mass gains at all, then you're confused.

edit: took out some unneccary hostile remarks

Look, dude.

Let me some it up for you.

One can minimize it. (fat accumulation)

But, not totally eliminate it (fat accumulation) On a bulk.

Different strokes for different folks means different methods of application, and it ISNT......a one size fits all.

Even with the best estimates (that vary per person) on a bulking surplus diet, if the excess (after building and repairing is complete), even with additional cardio, the surplus calories have a high probablity in being stored as fat.

One has to consider the variances of one's metabolism, and when one does, though some basic and advanced knowledge can be applied, there IS NO ONE ABSOLUTE SCIENCE application.

You havent been around enough on this forum to speculate anything about my beloved forum brother and sista's. If you were, you wouldn't be making some of your rather rediculous statements about our forum.


Best wishes,


Chillen

Ok you guys do your thing, I'm not going to convince you to drop your traditions. I am simply suggesting as a nutritionist and personal trainer, that there are other methods of getting the same result in a clean way and that cardio should be incorporated into every form of training. I have seen too many times guys "bulking" and ending up in terrible shape, both internally and externally.

Btw, no insult was meant to any 'brotha' or 'sista'

I'll leave you to it

I'm sure you also went to a very prestigious schools and your test scores are through the roof. And of course, you must have such a wide range of clientel to support your methods. Let me guess, you are alwyn cosgrove himself? Dr. John Berardi?

I've had so called "nutritionsis and personal trainers" tell me before that squats are BAD FOR YOU. labeling yourslef as those doesn't make your theory any more feasible. and since you don't seem to be addressing any of the points myself or chillen is making and you seem to be unwilling to provide scientific or experimental data to prove your hypotheses... I can only deduce that you are full of it.

but yeah, I'll forego trying to draw out some sort of explanation from you (because i doubt it will be sufficient) and instead say yes, please leave us to it.


p.s. bulk doesn't mean get fat as ****. besides, this man needs to cut fat before he does anybodies method of gaining muscle (in my opinon). even you can't possibly suggest that he will be able to cut fat while gaining muscle on your amazing cardio program

^ Heh, why so angry? Don't bother answering that, I'm not coming back.
Its always nice to have a 16 year old kid lecture you about higher education, nutrition and the science of the body.. I'm not here to make enemies, only to try to inspire change where it is needed. What you think is "easier" is not so for some genetic variations. What you consider to be the best or only way to accomplish your goals is your limitation.

Good Luck to everyone in accomplishing their goals!

We need more people like you. Your frame of mind is good. However, the frame of mind of the forum concerning diet and fitness is spot on. We are always open for discussion, but leave open the chance the someone may have a different approach than yours (that is backed by science and sound education), and there is more than one way to skin a cat, once knowledge of diet and fitness is obtained.

I wish you wouldnt leave. I think you could contribute sound advice.


Best wishes


Chillen

I'm going to assume you do come back, people like you normally, do, but if not, no big **** for me.

I'm not angry, there is no point at being angry in someone who has nothing with which to support his arguments. honestly, based on my nearly perfect SAT score, and my matching class rank and GPA, i'll more than likely be going to a far better institution than you have attended and there, I will be able to better educate myself as to nutrition and the science of the body.

I'm not here to make enemies either. but your statements I believe are incorrect, and your statement about how a deficit diet will make you gain weight I know is incorrect. again. you have adressed and explained nothing. as it stands, you have stated only a theory, but with no supporting facts.

Since you are so knowledgable in nutrition and the science of the body. Please, explain why intense cardio during weight training leads to great mass gains without fat gains. Explain how a caloric deficit will lead to WEIGHT GAIN.
please.

otherwise, I consider the matter closed.

if some sort of MOD wants to give him a day or so to respond (unles he really doesn't come back) it'd probably be a good idea to get rid of the excess/unnecessary posts.

The insults could go, but other than that it is a good discussion. For example, I didnt know to maintain for a week or two, then start the cut. I jumped right into it about 2 weeks ago, going from a bulk right to a cut. Any onther tips would be great.

A friend has me taking "Anabol Cuts" and a protien called "High 5" inbetween meals and "iso extreme" pre and post workout. All of these products are Max Muscle products. A body builder by the name of Jay Cutler told me it was possible to gain muscle while cutting. I've been reading these forums for almost 2 years and have NEVER heard that! Is he talking about cutting while on steroids or what?? Thanks guys.

*EDIT* In my opinon *edit*It's not possible to gain muscle while cutting (I don't do steroids so I don't know if that's the case). Unless you are a beginner (NEVER LIFTED BEFORE), you can't gain muscle while cutting. Even then, I don't know. Yo can ask around, but I'm nearly positive you can't gain muscle WHILE simultaneously losing fat. One requires caloric surplus, the other requires deficit. How could you do both at once?

Look, I don't know what highanddry was getting at, he did not explain himself or post anything particularly substantive as to his methods.

What I know is, I've lost 55 lbs. I know others who have lost weight, here is how you do it.

AFter bulk, 1 week break from lifting, slowly lower back to maintenance. Do some light work for a couple weeks at about maintenance. Take another week to slowly move down to your deficit.

This month amount of time gives ample (maybe even too much) time for your metabolism to adjust, and there won't be any of this bull**** gain fat. (Honestly though, if you have a true deficit in which your daily use of calories is greater than what you take in, this takes metabolism into consideration btw, you WILL NOT BE GAINING MASS OF ANY KIND).

You asked if you should cut. I think so. I tihnk you look like you have alot of muscle underneath and you would do well to cut at this point.

About supplements: I never used any to cut with, except for maybe something with protein in it. but that's all you ever need in my opinion. You can successfully cut with or without supplementation. I lack the knowledge to tell you anything about supplements, other than it is my opinion you needn't waste your money.


Here is a link of programs by professionals that I've compiled. You got waterbury, cosgrove, etc. in here. THere are quite a few programs focused on fat loss (I recommend 10x3 for fat loss). I encourage you to take a look. I also highly recommend you read the link at the bottom of the first post called "Hierarchy of FAt Loss"
http://training.fitness.com/weight-t...tml#post304151

If you have any questisn I'll be happy to try and help you out.