just wondering (for my next cut cycle) what is the best thermogenic supplement, you know for losing fat, speeding up the metabolism. whats the best replacement for ephedra? (yeah right, replace lol)..

i keep hearing about hotrox but i've never tried it

last year i just did ephedrine and caffiene. got me going but no where near as much as ephedra did which is why i had stopped using it long ago.

What all did they ban in the US? anyway, not too familiar. Do some herbal stores still have MaHuang?

I use Ephedrine HCL with aspirin and Caffeine, works like a charm for me,

because stupid people took like 5 times the reccomended dosage and died.. if you take enough tylenol you'll die, but that's still on the market. stupid people ruin it for everyone.. anyways, ive heard a lot about hotrox also, not to familiar with it, anyone wanna give a testimony?

You can use lots of caffeine and a nicotine patch, will get your metabolism up but you may get hooked. Better than smoking or chew anyways. Don't know if I would recommend any of these but they will do a bang up job.

But seriously, everything else they sell seems to be just high in caffeine and Ginseng, the government has really tied your hands for an effective supplement.

And Tylenol is way more dangerous than Ephedra, you are correct on that, just doubling the daily dose can cause seriuos liver problems in some people.

And hey, caffeine and nicotine when used together act as a natural laxative! Fiber and energy boost in one shot.

I've found Redline to be one of the best on the market. As far as Hot Rox goes, I'll let you know...I just traded my Meltdown in today for a box of Hot Rox seeing as how the Meltdown did nothing for me.

yeah definatly keep me posted..

ephedra has been linked to about 200 deaths in the last 40 years. when you consider that its been estimated that b/w 10 and 20 million ppl used some sort of ephedra product each year the last couple of years, the numbers dont make sense.

now take that number of 200 and take out those who took more than the label recommended and take out those who shouldnt have been taking it anyway and you see how dense and ignorant the ban was.

plus the fact that its been used in china for the last 5000 years.....

Yea the ban is stupid. but so are a lot of people that used it. body builders have been using the ECA stack for years, and recently all these products came out and word got out and people abused it badly. Kids take it like a drug not for any benifit to them except to try and get a quick rush. and well they also figure hey if one gives you this much energy I bet 5 will make you feel great. and thats the crap that got it banned. sure you can OD on tylenol or anything really, but when you take tylenol do you feel a rush.. nah because you dont physically feel it your not just going to keep poppin the pills.

I still take the stack when cutting all the time. just stick to twice a day once in the morning and once mid day nothing after 5 so I am not up all night. I go 3 weeks on 1 week off when I am doing it and I cycle it like that for about 3 months, then I take a complete month off. just to keep the body guessin. Honestly though I would say just eat right if you dont want to take the stack yourself or whatever. take a good multi vitamin and spend the money on some good protein supp instead of wasting money on all the new fat burners that dont work. protien will raise the metabolism and help burn fat while preserving muscle. just my .02 I would rather spend the money somewhere else as most suplements are crap and just cost alot.

There is some merit to the ban in the sense that the FDA doesn't regulate natural supplementation, and so there aren't really any safeguards in place to protect people (who are prone to overdoing it when it comes to good results) from themselves.

On the flipside, yeah, the greater good. It's super effective, generally safe, and there's money in it for retailers. They hurt the consumers and the industry - at a time when people are getting fatter and fatter.

P.S., not all the other products are mainly caffeine. One of those most common ingredients among thermogenic products (like Xenadrine, Tight, etc.) is bitter orange extract. Some use a combination. Herbalean, on the other hand, uses a patented herbal blend - and is quite different. So if the caffeine/bitter orange doesn't work for you, that might be something worth looking into.

caffeine is good for cutting? so would you recommend taking caffeine pills solely?

The amount of calories you'd lose, really, are negligible - but hey, it adds up. There are a lot of things you can take to increase your calorie burn throughout the day... caffeine, synephrine-based supplements, CLA, Pyruvate -- but really, they're no replacement for a good diet and regular activity.

Umm, Ephedra and Ephedrine are the same thing. And the ban is very legitimate.

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2004/NEW01021.html

They're not out to ruin your day, they're trying to keep people from hurting themselves. Considering that Ephedrine is a core precursor for Methamphetamine, are you really that upset that they banned it?

Personally, I've never needed more than B vitamins, lots of water, and a cup or two of coffee for energy to cut with, but if you're all really hard-up for a stim then why not just take some Pseudophedrine (Sudafed) before it's scheduled (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...G4TB085H18.DTL ) as well.

Though I'm sure none of you want to hear it, a good lot of fat burning/energy increasing supplements are placebo.

i dont know anything about this really, but, from what ive read i guess its pretty good stuff.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...highlight=bark