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  1. #1
    ryan04 is offline Warming Up
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    After lifting how important are carbs to prevent catabolism?

    After lifting to tone, (i'm trying to get into single digit body fat) along with a protien shake is it good to take carbs, and if so low gi or high gi? is maltodextrin still the prefered carb when cutting? PLEASE BE VERY DETAILED and explain why ima research all awnsers and I would appreciate any opinions you have thx!.

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  3. #2
    matt182 is offline Needs to Deload
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    you should take both protein and carbs after your workout

    The protein to repair and build muscle and the
    carbs (high Gi) to replace the energy lost in the workout and to increase
    amino acid uptake.

    Dont worry about catabolism, it doesnt occur with workouts as long as your diets in check.

  4. #3
    ryan04 is offline Warming Up
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt182 View Post
    you should take both protein and carbs after your workout

    The protein to repair and build muscle and the
    carbs (high Gi) to replace the energy lost in the workout and to increase
    amino acid uptake.

    Dont worry about catabolism, it doesnt occur with workouts as long as your diets in check.
    .... Why? I mean it seems like I would be eating the same way to BULK as I would to cut after a workout? that sounds wrong to me... so explain the biology behind it if you can please.

    and doesn't some catabolism ALWAYS occur if your on a diet to cut? you can minimize it extremely but if you have a calorie deficient (which is required for fat loss) some catabolism results. Or at least i've come to believe.
    Last edited by ryan04; Dec. 22/07 at 10:47 PM.

  5. #4
    matt182 is offline Needs to Deload
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    I dont know what part your first paragraph is directed to (?)

    What i said isnt necessarily the same, even if you did what i mentioned, if you are'nt eating more than your maintanance your not bulking. The carbs and protein after a workout anticipate the roles i stated previously..

    Sorry didnt know you were dieting,
    Im sure there is some muscle protein catabolism,
    even though it would be small and probably unoticeable.

    Im sure derwin or wrangell who know a bit about weightloss/diet/training
    can help a bit more
    Last edited by matt182; Dec. 22/07 at 11:02 PM.

  6. #5
    ryan04 is offline Warming Up
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    hmm mab my question is unclear sorry there basically two ><...
    1.basically when trying to lose fat, and preserve muscle do I want carbs with my protien shake after lifting? please be detailed about the biology behind it please i'll understand.

    2. I do know that unlike aerobic activity which is designed to burn fat and glycogen, lifting is only good for increasing your rmr and burning off carbs, so how does it indirectly help you lose fat? I mean in the absence of carbs does your body resort to ketosis to use fatty acids for energy to replace protien? Also I heard it promotes the creation of testosterone which helps you lose fat, does it affect any other hormone levels? How does lifting help you lose fat?

  7. #6
    matt182 is offline Needs to Deload
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    Well with regards to question 2

    People often suggest muscle building helps you lose fat which is correct.

    Guess what the major fuel for muscle is during rest (which is the majority of your time), its fat so the more muscle the more capable you are of burning fat - which of course causes your metabolic rate to increase. It also helps burn energy whilst your actually doing the workout.

    The carbs after your workout will increase the amino acid uptake for your muscle to utilise. Increasing muscle repair/building and in your case muscle catabolism. The carbs wont effect your weight loss as long as your in a calorie defecit.

  8. #7
    ryan04 is offline Warming Up
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    thats for muscle that already exists tho, when cutting it's difficult to really gain very much muscle mass so by lifting you probably aren't gaining any noticable amounts of muscle therefore those extra lbs of muscle won't be added till bulking stage, then after bulking is when it would help lose fat, how does it help lose fat WHILE your in a cutting phase?

  9. #8
    ryan04 is offline Warming Up
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    basically how does muscle repair burn fat is what im asking in question 2.

    I know that the more lean body mass you have the more fat you burn at rest that's basic stuff.

  10. #9
    BikeSwimLaugh is offline Verge of Overtraining
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    Matt,

    Excellent info!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan04 View Post
    doesn't some catabolism ALWAYS occur if your on a diet to cut? you can minimize it extremely but if you have a calorie deficient (which is required for fat loss) some catabolism results.
    I was discussing this with my nutrionist/dietician/trainer....he explained that some recent research had some woman on 700 calories and doing some weight-training, even with the low-calories, they still gained muscle! I don't have all the details behind this, but the info was meant to offset my concern in regards to catabolism. I don't have anything significant to back this up, but my feelings are that catabolism is a bit over-hyped and it's probably something that more likely happens when the body truly is turning to it's own muscle as a means of energy during extreme nutrient-deprivation & near starvation. As Matt pointed out, if your diet is in check, you should be fine.

    Granted, you're dieting....but if you are dieting in a healthy manner with a reasonably deficit (not sub 1,500 calories per day) then I'd figure you could still add muscle and not worry about catabolism. But, as someone on this forum wrote, Train Hard ~ Eat Hard...sometimes you need to give the body a bit more to get the results you think eating less will produce.

    Immediately following your workout, you absolutely should take-in protein and enough good carbs to REPLACE the glycogen and energy you just used to execute that workout. You need to put back what you just burned-up. My understanding is that immediately following workouts, your body is very disinclined to store fat and will instead replenish lost reserves AND kick-up the thermogenic/metabolic fire with the additional calories.

    Again: I'm told the body won't store energy as fat immediately post-workout!

    I'm just trying to help and mention what I've learned, been told, heard...don't be the least bit surprised if someone highlights my entire paragraph and instructs you to disregard it.

  11. #10
    ryan04 is offline Warming Up
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    well overall I don't expect to lose muscle mass if i'm doing exercise to promote muscle growth, i'm just trying to cut fat asap >< and wan't some real detailed info on this stuff I already know alot of stuff about diet and fitness more about bulking then fat loss tho><

  12. #11
    Wrangell is offline Needs to Deload
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan04 View Post
    hmm mab my question is unclear sorry there basically two ><...

    1.basically when trying to lose fat, and preserve muscle do I want carbs with my protien shake after lifting?
    Yes.

    And for pretty much the same reasons Matt cited in an earlier post.

    Like Matt said, you should target carbs ( for any post workout ) that have really high GI scores ( usually with a ' score ' anywhere from 70 - 100 ) which means that they get into your bloodstream really quickly and trigger a high insulin response ( spike ). The spike in insulin not only optimizes your body's ability to get glucose into your muscles, but as Matt also pointed out, it also optimizes your body's ability to get protein/ amino acids into your muscles as well - which is a good thing.

    As far as trying to figure out how many carbs you should take in after a workout, the minimum recommendation I see most often is that your post-workout nutrition should have at least a ' carbohydrates to protein ratio ' of 2 grams of carbohydrate for every 1 gram of protein. That said, while a 2:1 ratio is a common minimum you see cited, a 4:1 is the suggested ratio I see most often recommended. However, there are many opinions out there as to what the ' optimum ' ratio actually is. There is certainly no ' hard & fast ' rule perhaps other than carbs grams should be at least equal to ( or exceed ) protein grams .....post workout.

    In terms of absolute numbers, the norm I go by is is to take in about 0.5 grams of carbohydrate per pound of body weight post workout. Extrapolating based on this 4:1 ratio, that'd put protein at about 0.125 grams of carbohydrate per pound of body weight.

    As for what type of carb you should take in, again, any carb with a HI GI score somewhere between 70 - 100 will help optimize the rate at which your body refuels itself. You mentioned maltodextrin earlier- which a good example of a carb with a HI GI score score ( close to 100 I think ). But, any HI Score ' carb will do. Simply a carb with a GI score of 80 or above would be a good way to go IMO. Some quick examples of some 80+ Score carbs you could store in your gym bag to have along with your protein shake would be......

    - pretzels
    - Rice / Corn Chex cereal
    - Crispix cereal
    - jelly bean candy
    - gummi bear candy
    - Rice cakes
    - dates

    As for your earlier comment ...." it seems like I would be eating the same way to BULK as I would to cut after a workout? that sounds wrong to me "

    I would disagree. It is a good idea to have a post-workout shake regardless of whether you are trying too lose fat, add muscle mass or just maintain the weight you have IMO. From a nutrition point of view, bulking and cutting is primarily about overall calories - surplus and deficit respectively. And not so much about issues pertaining to post workout meal calories and or post workout meal macro nutrient breakdowns IMO - both of which make up only a relatively small % of one's overall calories and macro nutrients for the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan04 View Post
    I do know that unlike aerobic activity which is designed to burn fat and glycogen, lifting is only good for increasing your rmr and burning off carbs, so how does it indirectly help you lose fat?

    I mean in the absence of carbs does your body resort to ketosis to use fatty acids for energy to replace protien?

    How does lifting help you lose fat?
    I will defer to Matt and Derwyddon ( and their academic grounding ) on this for a more accurate explanation on the bio-chemistry of how your body refuels , but here is my layman's understanding of it.

    You're right. Weight lifting - especially ' hard ' training - is primarily an anaerobic exercise. However, for the hour or so that you're lifting, you'll actually be burning off BOTH fat and carbs - not " only carbs " as you suggested. When you are winded during your sets, most of your fuel will come from carbs / glycogen. When you rest between sets / exercise and you get your breath back, you'll burn proportionally more fat than carbs than when you were winded.

    How your body goes about losing fat after a weight workout is actually mired in detailed explanation of EPOC ( Excess Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption ) - or your increase in metabolism due to increased oxygen consumption. Matt and Derwyddon can likely explain EPOC in much greater detail than I can.

    However, my layman's my sense of it makes me think that trying to understand the relationship between weight training and fat loss might have more to do with what you touched on above. And that is, that your body needs energy ( ATP ) in order fuel bio-chemcial processes after you exercise. For example, after a cardio or weight workout, your glycogen stores are depleted somewhat and your body is primed to replace that glycogen. The best way to do that is to supply your body with carbs after a workout. After you ingest carbs, your digestive enzymes break them down into ( among other things ) glucose molecules. My understanding is that it's the chemical bonding of these glucose molecules that actually creates ( synthesizes ) glycogen. And, it's this bonding process of glucose molecules that requires energy - energy in the form of ATP. So, you need ATP energy to combine glucose molecules together in order to create / replace glycogen.

    The most readily available source of ATP is the ATP that's stored in your muscles, but as I understand it, those ATP stores usually get used up during exercise. So, where do you get the ATP energy you need to create and replace glycogen ? From FAT. Your body will burn fat after your exercise in order to get the energy - ATP - it needs to create glycogen. And here's where the oxygen ( EPOC ) comes in. When you burn fat, you require oxygen. Burning fat results in basically 3 things - ' energy ' ( ATP ) carbon dioxide, and water. The ' energy ' ( via heat ) and water is removed from your body by sweating. Carbon dioxide is simply removed in your breath by breathing.

    So, in a nutshell, and in response to your question " How does lifting help you lose fat ? " among other things, your body will breakdown fat - i.e thus you'll lose fat - in order to replenish your glycogen stores somewhat depleted from weight lifting. Perhaps Matt and Derwyddon can explain how ' fat ATP ' is used as energy for protein synthesis - " energy to replace protien " - and other issues relevant to EPOC.

    Again, I don't have an academic background in bio-chemistry or health & fitness like Matt and Derwyddon do - so I would defer to both of them to not only correct any errors that may be contained in my explanation above but to also help you further if you want a more detailed explanation of how fat is broken down in your body from a bio-chemical point of view.
    Last edited by Wrangell; Dec. 23/07 at 05:38 AM.

  13. #12
    gnutella is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt182 View Post
    Sorry didnt know you were dieting,
    Im sure there is some muscle protein catabolism, even though it would be small and probably unoticeable.
    Thats funny because a line earlier you said
    Quote Originally Posted by matt182
    Dont worry about catabolism, it doesnt occur with workouts as long as your diets in check.
    Are you reading from a script?

  14. #13
    goergen1 is offline Wearing a Cool Hat
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    Dont worry about catabolism, it doesnt occur with workouts as long as your diets in check.
    That statement is true whether bulking or cutting.

  15. #14
    Wrangell is offline Needs to Deload
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    Quote Originally Posted by goergen1 View Post
    That statement is true whether bulking or cutting.
    Agreed.

    gnutella simply misinterpreted the context in which Matt used the term " diets " IMO.

  16. #15
    Phate89 is offline Bond Boy
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnutella View Post
    Thats funny because a line earlier you said

    Are you reading from a script?
    Diets - Food intake
    Dieting - specific word to state your trying to lose weight.

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