how much cardio for optimal weight loss?

BikeSwimLaugh · Mar. 04/08, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrangell

Generally speaking, all other things being equal, the more calories you lose the more fat you'll lose.

Oh come on, that's like saying the more money you have, the wealthier you are.......

Oh....wait, I get it now.

jokerswild1130 · Mar. 04/08, 04:41 PM

Makes sense Wrangell. I will work on increasing the intensity of the SS cardio and try to add more HIIT as well. Im headed to the gym now for a HIIT session actually.

BikeSwimLaugh · Mar. 04/08, 04:51 PM

That's the spirit JW....

And if some cardio-bunny hottie should walk near ya, HIIT it!!!!

Wrangell · 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

Makes sense Wrangell. I will work on increasing the intensity of the SS cardio

Sounds like a plan.

For what it's worth ( on the intensity issue ) when I did my 30 minute SS cardio sessions, I used to use the 25:00 minute mark as my benchmark to gauge if my session was hard enough on me..... ' intensity wise '.

I knew I was going as hard as I could if - at the 25:00 minute mark - I was begging myself into quitting because I knew with 100% certainty I couldn't take even 1 second more past the 25:00 minute mark ..... or I'd die ! To me, doing a ' hard ' 30 minute SS cardio session means having absolutely nothing at all left in the tank by the 29:59 mark with those last 5 minutes being worse than a living hell.

In other words, if you're going to train....TRAIN HARD !

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

and try to add more HIIT as well. Im headed to the gym now for a HIIT session actually.

Sounds good.

btw - what does your HIIT protocol look like anyway ?

jokerswild1130 · Mar. 04/08, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrangell

Sounds good.

btw - what does your HIIT protocol look like anyway ?

I have been using the bike...do about 2-3 minute warmup...then 5 intervals of 1 minute sprint 2 minute recovery...then do about a 5 minute warmdown. I am usually wiped at the end of it with my legs feeling pretty sore. I usually follow the HIIT workout with an additional 20 minutes on the treadmill at a lower pace.

Wrangell · 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

I have been using the bike...do about 2-3 minute warmup...then 5 intervals of 1 minute sprint 2 minute recovery...then do about a 5 minute warmdown. I am usually wiped at the end of it with my legs feeling pretty sore. I usually follow the HIIT workout with an additional 20 minutes on the treadmill at a lower pace.

Sounds pretty good !

Although, I'm somewhat surprised you have anything left in your tank after your HIIT to still be able to do 20 minutes of cardio on the treadmill. Why do you tack on those additional 20 minutes on the treadmill at a lower pace - i.e is there some ' training ' rationale for doing this ?

With respect to your bike....

- Do you stand up ( i.e does the bike have toe traps ? ) during your 1 minute work intervals ......or do you remain seated ?

- What rpm do you maintain for your recovery intervals ?

- Do you alter speed, resistance - or both - during your work intervals ?

- Would there be any value ( fat burning wise ) in maybe doing 7 X 1:2 intervals sets ( instead of 5 ) for a total of 21 minutes of interval set time, combined with a 3 minute warm up and a 5 minute cool down to give you a total HIIT session time of 29 minutes ? That way you could add 6 minutes of additional intervals in exchange for perhaps fewer - i.e only 15 minutes ( instead of 20 ) - on the treadmill at a lower pace.

jokerswild1130 · Mar. 04/08, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrangell

Sounds pretty good !

Although, I'm somewhat surprised you have anything left in your tank after your HIIT to still be able to do 20 minutes of cardio on the treadmill. Why do you tack on those additional 20 minutes on the treadmill at a lower pace - i.e is there some ' training ' rationale for doing this ?

With respect to your bike....

- Do you stand up ( i.e does the bike have toe traps ? ) during your 1 minute work intervals ......or do you remain seated ?

- What rpm do you maintain for your recovery intervals ?

- Do you alter speed, resistance - or both - during your work intervals ?

- Would there be any value in doing 7 X 1:2 intervals sets ( instead of 5 ) for a total of 21 minutes of interval set time, combined with a 3 minute warm up and a 5 minute cool down to give you a total HIIT session time of 29 HIIT session minutes ? That way you could add 6 minutes of additional intervals in exchange for perhaps fewer - i.e only 15 minutes ( instead of 20 ) - on the treadmill at a lower pace.

I use a recumbent bike so I remain seated. I usually ramp up the level on the bike from 3 to 12..by the 3rd interval I can only really get the level up to 10. I also alter speed during the interval and basically pedal as hard as I possibly can.

RPM during the intervals usually is around 118 with the level at 10-13. Recovery level is about 90-95rpm.

I plan on ramping up the number of intervals in a week or so.

I really dont have a ton of energy for the treadmill after the HIIT which is why I usually keep the pace fairly moderate for the duration. I do the treadmill after my HIIT for 2 reasons: 1. I figure that my metabolism is running pretty high so why not try and burn some additional calories. 2. Im doing HIIT on my offdays from lifting and considering Im spending about 20-25 minutes roundtrip in the car getting to and from the gym, I want to spend more then 30 minutes there.

Wrangell · 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

I use a recumbent bike so I remain seated.

Too bad.....cause standing up during a bike ' work interval ' and going flat out is brutal / great ( just ask BikeSwimLaugh about his spinning classes ) !

Can't stand recumbent bikes myself - most of the recumbent bikes I've seen ( i.e in quantity ......in one location ) have been in rehab settings. ...and I won't tell you what one of my favorite trainers called recumbent bikes.

If you have other bike options, I'd choose them first over a recumbent - but that's just me. Then again, if all you have is a recumbent bike, you have to work with what you have.

I'm curious - why don't you use the traditional stationary bikes ( i.e LifeFitness etc. ) at the gym as well ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

I usually ramp up the level on the bike from 3 to 12..by the 3rd interval I can only really get the level up to 10. I also alter speed during the interval and basically pedal as hard as I possibly can

Actually, that sounds pretty darn good.

Better than me, that's for sure ...I usually kept the resistance steady and just pedaled as fast as I could till my legs started burning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

RPM during the intervals usually is around 118 with the level at 10-13. Recovery level is about 90-95rpm.

Again, your work interval certainly sounds demanding - well done ! Though if you're pedaling as fast as you can, your top end pedal speed ( i.e 118 ) probably isn't an issue you have to worry about......pedaling as fast as you can is pedaling as fast as you can after all.

As for recovery intervals, I've always ( and I don't really know where I got this from ) stayed at 80 rpm - which is my warm up rpm as well. A 90-95rpm would be too high for me to recover with I think....at least for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

I plan on ramping up the number of intervals in a week or so.

A week or so ?

Why not do 7 X 1:2 intervals sets starting ....as of tomorrow ?

Trust me...if you can do 5 X 1:2 today ...you can do 7 X 1:2 tomorrow.

You can do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

I really dont have a ton of energy for the treadmill after the HIIT which is why I usually keep the pace fairly moderate for the duration. I do the treadmill after my HIIT for 2 reasons: 1. I figure that my metabolism is running pretty high so why not try and burn some additional calories.

That's certainly your prerogative, but if your goal in doing treadmill work is to burn more calories ( and I assume you want to burn as many calories as you can ? ), 20 minutes of low intensity may not be the most efficient way to go about it. You might want to try doing an additional 10 minutes of HIIT instead and therefore be able to forgo the 20 minutes of low intensity treadmill work altogether, or simply do your 20 minutes of treadmill work again - as hard as you can - whether you have a " ton of energy " or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

2. Im doing HIIT on my offdays from lifting and considering Im spending about 20-25 minutes roundtrip in the car getting to and from the gym, I want to spend more then 30 minutes there.

Let's say you continue to train 6X a week as you do now.

Why not simply do HIIT cardio after each weight workout....i.e 3X a week ( M-F )

Then, on your ' offdays ' do 30 minutes of ' hard as you can ' ss cardio followed by a hard 20- 30 minute HIIT session ...again, about 2 X a week ( M-F )

Then on Day 6 ( Sat ) , simply go for a longer cardio session like a 10 k run or something.

amp89 · Mar. 04/08, 10:57 PM

Not to butt in... but Wrangell, what do you think of my usual HIIT routine on a tredmill:
-5 minute warmup
-200m or 30-40 sec intervals at 11mph
-200m or 60 sec recovery at 6mph
-5 min warmdown

I usually do the HIIT for 21 minutes total

Wrangell · 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amp89

Not to butt in... but Wrangell,

Hey, no worries.....it's all good !

Any time you can discuss HIIT.....it's a good day !.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amp89

what do you think of my usual HIIT routine on a tredmill:
-5 minute warmup
-200m or 30-40 sec intervals at 11mph
-200m or 60 sec recovery at 6mph
-5 min warmdown

I usually do the HIIT for 21 minutes total

Looks pretty good to me.

First of all, I'm particularly impressed with the fact that you do an 11 mph ' work interval ' - that's not easy ! And a 6 mph is a pretty good clip for a recovery as well IMO ! So, well done on both counts !

Actually, it's pretty close to some of the HIIT protocols we used for hockey. Our work intervals were close to what you do now - with treadmill speeds anywhere from around 10 mph - 12 mph. Only difference is, our players would go beyond 40 seconds ( you do now ) and instead would go for 1 full minute at 10 mph - 12 mph.....we found that they could usually get to 40 seconds with some reasonable effort but those last 20 seconds ( from 40 to get to 60 ... to get to 1 full minute ) took real effort and were real killers and they were hanging on for dear life by the time the minute was up.

Oh, and we'd also do what's called a 10 /10 work interval sometimes...which is 1 minute at 10 mph set at an incline setting of 10...something you could try just to mix things up here and there.

And for their recovery interval , they'd actually get off the treadmill and walk around till their heart rate dropped to a pre-determined level which would usually take around 2 minutes or so. That's a work / rest ration of 1:2. Your ratio appears to be very close to that as well. Although, you run at 6 mph for your rest interval...which is harder to do IMO ...so hats off to you amp89 .

Beyond that, while there's nothing wrong with a 21 minute session, you might try and stretch the session out a bit to more to around 30 minutes or so once in awhile, perhaps...

- 3 - 5 minute warm up
- 20 - 25 minutes of interval sets
- 3 - 5 minute cool down

...but overall, I think it's a pretty challenging HIIT protocol you've got there.

Keep it up....and remember TRAIN HARD !

jokerswild1130 · Mar. 05/08, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrangell

Too bad.....cause standing up during a bike ' work interval ' and going flat out is brutal / great ( just ask BikeSwimLaugh about his spinning classes ) !

I'm curious - why don't you use the traditional stationary bikes ( i.e LifeFitness etc. ) at the gym as well ?

Let's say you continue to train 6X a week as you do now.

Why not simply do HIIT cardio after each weight workout....i.e 3X a week ( M-F )

Then, on your ' offdays ' do 30 minutes of ' hard as you can ' ss cardio followed by a hard 20- 30 minute HIIT session ...again, about 2 X a week ( M-F )

Then on Day 6 ( Sat ) , simply go for a longer cardio session like a 10 k run or something.

Ive used the recumbant bikes over the traditional model based mostly on comfort and the lack of numbness which I usually end up with on the regular bike. I have used the standup model and tried standing and pedaling but felt off balance and wasnt able to push as hard as I would from a seated position.

I have read on here and elsewhere that HIIT should be done on non-lifting days? Is that not the case? I also read on TNation that HIIT shouldnt be done on consecutive days?

I wish I could do a 10K

With being overweight and quitting smoking a little more then 2 months ago after being a smoker for 15 years...my lungs arent quite ready for that challenge. I am working on gradually trying to incorporate some running and increasing the time and distance but I am not even close to being there yet.

The one thing I have noticed is that my quads are getting bigger and toned between the HIIT and probably more likely the squats and leg pressing.

amp89 · Mar. 05/08, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrangell

Hey, no worries.....it's all good !

Any time you can discuss HIIT.....it's a good day !.

...

Oh, and we'd also do what's called a 10 /10 work interval sometimes...which is 1 minute at 10 mph set at an incline setting of 10...something you could try just to mix things up here and there.

...

- 3 - 5 minute warm up
- 20 - 25 minutes of interval sets
- 3 - 5 minute cool down

...but overall, I think it's a pretty challenging HIIT protocol you've got there.

TRAIN HARD !

Hey thanks alot wrangell! And I will look into that 10/10 thing. I'm not sure if I could increase that time to a minute though like your hockey players, as towards the end of the session i have to grab onto the bars while it slows down so I don't fly off into a wall! The time issue however, when i said 21 minutes, I meant 21 minutes of intervals with a 5 minute warm up before and 3 minute warmdown at the end. But I'll look into doing 2 or 3 more intervals just to really kick my own ass! But again thanks.

Wrangell · 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

4 weeks of HIIT at HIIT 4X a weekIve used the recumbant bikes over the traditional model based mostly on comfort and the lack of numbness which I usually end up with on the regular bike..

Well, this is just my personal take on things mind you, but ' comfort ' is way down on my list of concerns when trying to get as hard a cardio workout as I can under my belt. If anything, during most of my HIIT workouts, ' comfort ' is the not even on the radar - in fact, I feel like I'm dying the entire time of my HIIT sessions !

In other words, if I expect to train hard, I expect to be ' uncomfortable ' - and that's under a best case scenario - but that's just me.

As for ' numbness ', i assume it's your butt that gets numb ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

I have used the standup model and tried standing and pedaling but felt off balance and wasnt able to push as hard as I would from a seated position.

That's really odd. " Off balance "......... in what way ?

If you have toe traps on the bike ( did you have toe traps ? ) and you hold fast of the bike handles you should be able to go 100% standing up and leaning forward without any trouble whatsoever IMO. Without toe traps - it's close to impossible to go flat out though. Not only have I done standing up and going 100% on bikes for over 20+ years, almost every kid I've seen doing bike training for hockey can do it too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

I have read on here and elsewhere that HIIT should be done on non-lifting days? Is that not the case?.

I don't see why you can't.

In fact, Alywn Cosgrove - co-author of ' new Rules of Lifitng - has a HIIT protocol for fat loss in which he claims HIIT can easily be done after weight training if you so choose.

And don't forget, when you combine games and high tempo practices, hockey players can do HIIT cardio 6 days a week for a period of 6 months or more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

I also read on TNation that HIIT shouldnt be done on consecutive days?

Why ?

Again, going back to Alywn, his 16 week fat loss program calls for his last 8 weeks to be 4 weeks of HIIT at HIIT sessions 4X a week and wrapping up with the last 4 weeks of HIIT at HIIT sessions 5X a week. So, in the short term at least, and assuming you're fueling properly, consecutive days of HIIT shouldn't be a significant issue IMO. Now if you wanted to plan a cardio schedule for the next 20 years, I'd probably mix up HIIT with some other cardio - something like HIIT 2 - 3X a week and some steady state cardio thrown in on other days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

I wish I could do a 10K

If you can do 30 - 45 of steady state cardio and HIIT cardio as you do - physically - you can definitely do / finish a 10k IMO.

My sense is that you just don't ' think ' you can do it.....that's the difference

Don't sell yourself short jokerswild....you're working hard and obviously have a lot of commitment and discipline to train...you could do a 10k.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

With being overweight and quitting smoking a little more then 2 months ago after being a smoker for 15 years...my lungs arent quite ready for that challenge. I am working on gradually trying to incorporate some running and increasing the time and distance but I am not even close to being there yet.

If you keep up your cardio ( and perhaps go a bit harder ), there is no reason your couldn't do a 10k as of May1 IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokerswild1130

The one thing I have noticed is that my quads are getting bigger and toned between the HIIT and probably more likely the squats and leg pressing.

Sounds about right.

Keep it up jokerswild....and remember TRAIN HARD !

Wrangell · 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amp89

Hey thanks alot wrangell! And I will look into that 10/10 thing.

Hey......don't be in any rush to do a 10 /10 - it's brutal !

But it IS something you can shoot for down the road in terms of HIIt and slowly work up to if you like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amp89

I'm not sure if I could increase that time to a minute though like your hockey players, as towards the end of the session i have to grab onto the bars while it slows down so I don't fly off into a wall!

No worries ...they ' hang on ' as well and can barely hold on till the 1 minute is up.

But, you're doing 40 seconds at 11 mph as it is now - which is very very good.

Given that, and given the idea is that you SHOULD be hanging on for dear life as that 1 minute work interval comes to a close - I'm certain you could do 1 minute at 11 mph at your usual incline level.

Don't sell yourself short amp89...with 11 mph HIIT sessions you're training hard now as it is.....give it a try tonight !! And when you hit that 40 second mark tonight and that little voice in your head tells you there is no way in God's green earth you can go till that the 1 minute is up and that you'll die if you go on for even 5 more seconds beyond 40 - you ignore what your mind is telling you and let your body do the talking and you keep going for those extra 20 seconds til 1 minute is up..... ...no ...matter ...what !

Quote:

Originally Posted by amp89

The time issue however, when i said 21 minutes, I meant 21 minutes of intervals with a 5 minute warm up before and 3 minute warmdown at the end. But I'll look into doing 2 or 3 more intervals just to really kick my own ass! But again thanks.

Oh...O.K.....I misinterpreted what you said...sorry.

If you're doing a 5+21+3 HIIT workout that's pretty darn good as it is....so all you might need is a bit of fine tuning amp89 to find where your real ' red line ' / near death threshold is.

You want to train so hard with your HIIT that other people in the gym actually stop what their doing, and gather around your treadmill just to watch and applaud cause they're so freakin' impressed !

jokerswild1130 · 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrangell

Well, this is just my personal take on things mind you, but ' comfort ' is way down on my list of concerns when trying to get as hard a cardio workout as I can under my belt. If anything, during most of my HIIT workouts, ' comfort ' is the not even on the radar - in fact, I feel like I'm dying the entire time of my HIIT sessions !

In other words, if I expect to train hard, I expect to be ' uncomfortable ' - and that's under a best case scenario - but that's just me.

As for ' numbness ', i assume it's your butt that gets numb ?

That's really odd. " Off balance "......... in what way ?

If you have toe traps on the bike ( did you have toe traps ? ) and you hold fast of the bike handles you should be able to go 100% standing up and leaning forward without any trouble whatsoever IMO. Without toe traps - it's close to impossible to go flat out though. Not only have I done standing up and going 100% on bikes for over 20+ years, almost every kid I've seen doing bike training for hockey can do it too.

On a normal bike outdoors I've had no problems doing this, I tried it the other night on one of the Lifecycle bikes and felt off balance, and couldnt go as fast or as hard as when I was pedaling from a seated position. Its hard to describe, but I will try again and see how it works.

I don't see why you can't.

In fact, Alywn Cosgrove - co-author of ' new Rules of Lifitng - has a HIIT protocol for fat loss in which he claims HIIT can easily be done after weight training if you so choose.

And don't forget, when you combine games and high tempo practices, hockey players can do HIIT cardio 6 days a week for a period of 6 months or more.

Why ?

Again, going back to Alywn, his 16 week fat loss program calls for his last 8 weeks to be 4 weeks of HIIT at HIIT sessions 4X a week and wrapping up with the last 4 weeks of HIIT at HIIT sessions 5X a week. So, in the short term at least, and assuming you're fueling properly, consecutive days of HIIT shouldn't be a significant issue IMO. Now if you wanted to plan a cardio schedule for the next 20 years, I'd probably mix up HIIT with some other cardio - something like HIIT 2 - 3X a week and some steady state cardio thrown in on other days.

I had read the do HIIT on non consecutive days in a number of articles I read on TNation. More specifically here: TESTOSTERONE NATION - Shredded at Last

On the other hand, he contradicts himself later in the article when he talks about doing HIIT 5x a week.

If you can do 30 - 45 of steady state cardio and HIIT cardio as you do - physically - you can definitely do / finish a 10k IMO.

My sense is that you just don't ' think ' you can do it.....that's the difference

Don't sell yourself short jokerswild....you're working hard and obviously have a lot of commitment and discipline to train...you could do a 10k.

If you keep up your cardio ( and perhaps go a bit harder ), there is no reason your couldn't do a 10k as of May1 IMO.

Thanks! I just havent been able to run for any sustained period of time yet. I have noticed my lung capacity improving from not smoking as the weeks go by, but Im not sure if I am there yet. As the weather gets warmer, I will go and hit the high school track in the neighborhood and see if I can run a mile or half mile and take it from there.

Sounds about right.

Keep it up jokerswild....and remember TRAIN HARD !

Wrangell I appreciate the words of wisdom and the support. I figure I am on a long road and shouldnt expect my physique to turn around overnight. Support like this definately helps keep me motivated and on track.

how much cardio for optimal weight loss?

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how much cardio for optimal weight loss?