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  Difference between strength and muscle? Post #16 (permalink)  
Old Jan. 14/09, 06:36 AM
Chillen
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,843
Here is a very good post, by Steve (stroughtman81 on this forum); a person I respect a lot:

OK, here's the philosophy 101 for you to help you understand what's going on when someone gets stronger without getting bigger.

The weight you lift is an external stressor. When applied properly, it forces the body to adapt. Most commonly, the body adapts anatomically; increased muscle mass and the like. This is what most are familiar with.

However, the body also adapts to this external stress by way of neurological adaptation. And the thing is, both forms of adaptation occur.... it's just the latter is less often talked about.

When you go to lift a weight, you're muscle responds by way of a 'message' sent from the brain. The central nervous system sends electrical impulses through the peripheral nervous system by way of motor neurons until it reaches the motor unit. The motor unit is the point where the motor neuron and muscle meet. The motor unit is classically defined as the alpha motor neuron and all the muscle fibers it innervates.

Sounds fancy, but it's not. Really, it's simply saying:

CNS ----------> Motor Unit -----------> Muscle Fibers

CNS sends impulse, impulse travels through the PNS eventually reaching the end motor neuron where said neuron links itself to the fibers comprising the muscle stimulating a muscular response (contraction).

There are a number of ways the nervous system adapts translating into increased strength. Most commonly discussed are factors such as rate coding, recruitment, and synchronization.

We call the frequency of electrical stimulation from the CNS to the muscle rate coding. As one of the adaptations to strength training, rate coding can increase, which simply means the brain is sending more signals to the muscle per unit of time activating a response. As rate coding is increased so is muscular tension or STRENGTH.

Recruitment is similar in that each impulse will recruit more MUs as it positively adapts leading to more fibers contracting per impulse; this means more strength. A prime example is when you bring someone untrained into the gym and put them on a balanced strength training program. Strength increases drastically over the first month, but muscle mass usually doesn't change much. Untrained individuals have a hard time activating all of their muscle fibers. As they train consistently for the first few weeks, the rate of strength gain can be huge most likely due to the improved coordination of just learning how to recruit more fibers.

The list goes on and on.... but in reality, strength is a complex phenomenon. It's not just about bigger muscles moving bigger weights.


Best wishes,

Chillen
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  Difference between strength and muscle? Post #17 (permalink)  
Old Jan. 14/09, 08:33 AM
Oldspice
First Set
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by tic View Post
Lets get back to the point here though guys. Oldspice, you should intake more carbs. My low carb / low calorie diet is making it hard for me remember everything in detail but carb intake is essential for muscle growth man.

Extra carbs will first feed/restore glycogen in liver + muslce, then be used for energy, and finally be turned into fat. I am not 100% sure but the muscle want glycogen level to be restored (to what point, I don't know) before it effective build muscle (just my guess).

As for high carbs+high fat diet = BAD for fat gain, I read that in real text from Lyle Mcdonald. My guess is that once the glycogen level in muscle is restored, the fat consumed will be stored verse extra carbs might be used for energy and that energy might be stored; so the fat skip steps (just my guess on mechanism, but the actual concept is from text).

Sorry that I cannot give more detailed answer guys, low-carb + glycogen depletion workout is BAD. Anyhow, increase the carb intake bud.. I don't know how you can manage a 100g carb a day diet btw. I am counting carbs and it's hard to get anywhere near 100g; shoot, I'd be happy with 150g carbs. For example, whey protein scope has 4g carbs and banana has 29g carb...

Try writing down everything, I mean everything that you eat for next 3 days and look up the carb content; you might be surprised. Btw, a large bagel has 79g carbs...
I count carbs on point bro. I have a protein shake and oatmeal in the morning. 5g of carbs from peanut butter i add and 54g of carbs from the oatmeal. (Technically, your supposed to subtract fiber, but I'm not going to right now) I'll have almonds as a snack, 6g carbs. Tuna mixed with mayo and a few eggs for lunch. A little turkey and peanut butter as a snack. Maybe 3g carbs. Dinner will be a generous amount of chicken breast and vegetables...Veggies barely have any carbs and it's fiber...

How should i increase my carbs? What food sources should i start eating with carbs? Maybe have a bit more oatmeal and some double fiber whole wheat bread? It's hard for me to find good carbs without sugar...
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  Difference between strength and muscle? Post #18 (permalink)  
Old Jan. 14/09, 10:32 AM
Oldspice
First Set
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillen View Post
Here is a very good post, by Steve (stroughtman81 on this forum); a person I respect a lot:

OK, here's the philosophy 101 for you to help you understand what's going on when someone gets stronger without getting bigger.

The weight you lift is an external stressor. When applied properly, it forces the body to adapt. Most commonly, the body adapts anatomically; increased muscle mass and the like. This is what most are familiar with.

However, the body also adapts to this external stress by way of neurological adaptation. And the thing is, both forms of adaptation occur.... it's just the latter is less often talked about.

When you go to lift a weight, you're muscle responds by way of a 'message' sent from the brain. The central nervous system sends electrical impulses through the peripheral nervous system by way of motor neurons until it reaches the motor unit. The motor unit is the point where the motor neuron and muscle meet. The motor unit is classically defined as the alpha motor neuron and all the muscle fibers it innervates.

Sounds fancy, but it's not. Really, it's simply saying:

CNS ----------> Motor Unit -----------> Muscle Fibers

CNS sends impulse, impulse travels through the PNS eventually reaching the end motor neuron where said neuron links itself to the fibers comprising the muscle stimulating a muscular response (contraction).

There are a number of ways the nervous system adapts translating into increased strength. Most commonly discussed are factors such as rate coding, recruitment, and synchronization.

We call the frequency of electrical stimulation from the CNS to the muscle rate coding. As one of the adaptations to strength training, rate coding can increase, which simply means the brain is sending more signals to the muscle per unit of time activating a response. As rate coding is increased so is muscular tension or STRENGTH.

Recruitment is similar in that each impulse will recruit more MUs as it positively adapts leading to more fibers contracting per impulse; this means more strength. A prime example is when you bring someone untrained into the gym and put them on a balanced strength training program. Strength increases drastically over the first month, but muscle mass usually doesn't change much. Untrained individuals have a hard time activating all of their muscle fibers. As they train consistently for the first few weeks, the rate of strength gain can be huge most likely due to the improved coordination of just learning how to recruit more fibers.

The list goes on and on.... but in reality, strength is a complex phenomenon. It's not just about bigger muscles moving bigger weights.


Best wishes,

Chillen

Gotcha, so if you gain strength, that's great, but what about size? The only way is eating over maintenance and rest?

Also, in your opinion what is the best way to eat over maintenance? More carbs, less fat? More fat, less carbs? Regardless, both assume at least 1g of protein per body weight.
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  Difference between strength and muscle? Post #19 (permalink)  
Old Jan. 14/09, 11:03 AM
tic's Avatar
tic
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: San Diego, Ca
Posts: 1,169
Another thing about strength is that the body have Gogli sensories that stop the body from lifting too much or else it will hurt themselves. Now, there are cases where people (mom) lifitng cars up and saving their child. What happened there is that the brain ignore the Gogli response and went for an all out effort. The child was saved but the mother probably tore a lot of muslce and hurt herself, from a muslce stand point.

Damn, that is a tight diet, Oldspice. Man, I don't know how you can eat so little in a day. I try my butt of to get on that kind of diet but it's very difficult for me; HATS off to you especially since you do not sneak in any "snack."

As for clean carbs, I perfer the slow digesting carbs: Oatmeal, bagels, wheat whole grain, starches (potatoe, corn). Add a little more and spread it thoughout the whole day. It's 4 calore per gram of carbs; fyi. Here is something that I got to doing last year that I used to not do and still feel arkwad doing it; eating 1 cup of cottage cheese before bed. When the body is sleeping, it repairs and rebuild (release a ton of hormones) so eating slow digesting protein (building block for the body) before bed is great. If you can try to eat that within 1 hour of bed. Here is my opinion on % diet: 30 protein, 50 carb, and 20 fat. Yup you actually need 1-1.5 g of protein per LBM so 1g protein per bodyweight will work.
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  Difference between strength and muscle? Post #20 (permalink)  
Old Jan. 14/09, 03:42 PM
Anoopbal
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 77
It is not really confusing as people make. Get stronger and you will get bigger!!

You will not find too many skinny guys who can bench 400 pounds.
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  Difference between strength and muscle? Post #21 (permalink)  
Old Jan. 16/09, 04:02 AM
buzz
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anoopbal View Post
It is not really confusing as people make. Get stronger and you will get bigger!!

You will not find too many skinny guys who can bench 400 pounds.
correct but only if you eat enough.
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  Difference between strength and muscle? Post #22 (permalink)  
Old Jan. 16/09, 05:11 PM
Chillen
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldspice View Post
Gotcha, so if you gain strength, that's great, but what about size? The only way is eating over maintenance and rest?

Also, in your opinion what is the best way to eat over maintenance? More carbs, less fat? More fat, less carbs? Regardless, both assume at least 1g of protein per body weight.
This can depend. Primarily on how you respond to certain calorie ranges, carbohydrate gram levels, etc. In other words, there is no such thing as a iron clad "rule" for you.

You must find the area that works best for you in the muscle to fat tissue growth--ratio.

But I can provide (an example) area to work within, and where you would manipulate as you get feed back from your body as you move forward. You simply will have to "experiment", and keep working with it and sticking with it, to "potentially" find a sweet spot, if there is one in the first place.

Constructing a diet, with one "wanting a goal" isn't really that difficult in the numbers game particular to the person.

1. Establish your BASELINE calorie needs.

This means look here to obtain this information:

Nutrition 101

Delaware Consumer Health Information Services (Originally Posted by Wrangell)

You probably already know this, and have calculated this.

Start with a mild surplus then adjust as needed. Small surplus meaning something like 300 to 500 calories, if you are worried about fat accumulation, IMO, I would start out on the lower end, and THEN increase as necessary.

2. Set a protein intake around the "ballpark premise" of 1g per pound of body weight. Simply a figure "around" this mark. The .08, gets floated around, as does the 1g per pound of body weight, and above. Simply middle ground it, to about 1g, and you will be okay.

Remember not to go below .08 to 1g, at least IMO. If you're eating more carbohydrates and total calories, protein doesn't have to be as high--such as in a bulk/gain weight situation. IMO.

The lower your calories and carbohydrates go, the more protein you'll need, such as in a cut/or lose the fat situation. IMO. You actually need more protein while "losing weight" than you do while gaining, so keep this in mind, at least in my opinion.

3. Set carbohydrate intake appropriately, either low, moderate, or high.

Where this ends up, can depend on how you respond (whether dieting to lose to tissue or dieting to gain tissue).

This is a KEY AREA of weight gain....good and bad.

Here you could define very low as 20g to 50g, low as under 75-100g, and moderate 100-200g, and high would be anything over 200g per day.

For performance needs and weight gain, 200g or more per day is a good starting point, but could be extremely high for wanting to lose tissue. And, its one (in a diet to cut tissue), I would not consider. And, it is possible this gram range could be to high for you, in a bulk. Tweak and find, I say.

If you're looking to improve body composition and drop fat quicker, keeping carbohydrates under 100g per day is a good idea for most. The moderate approach is the balance point, still allowing improvements in body comp while not entirely sacrificing performance.

Tweaking this almighty macro nutrient is powerful, and find a range that works with you.


Simply, fill in the rest with good Fats.

Once you've established your calorie baseline, MT-Line, and surplus, protein and carbohydrate consumption, you simply fill in the rest with fats, and tweak you calorie and macro nutrients in accordance with the type of bodily response you "personally receive". If its not so good on the fat accumulation front (speaking in terms of just......dietary perimeters), you would then potentially look at two things: Your calorie intake and carbohydrate intake, and tweak one of these or both of these, and mediate the differences remaining in grams.

This is the most basic and most simple way I can put it for you.

Best wishes,

Chillen

Last edited by Chillen; Jan. 16/09 at 05:16 PM.
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