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  1. #1
    Oldspice is offline First Set
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    Difference between strength and muscle?

    I've heard speculation that you can gain muscle, without gaining weight and eating over maintenance. Well, you would gain weight, but very slowly and not much at all. Is this true?

    Apparently, if you eat protein 1g per lb of body weight and a normal diet, you can gain muscle. But, to gain weight/muscle/fat, you have to eat over maintenance. Eating a normal diet will take longer, but you can actually build muscle while eating a normal diet, since you are lifting weights and making your muscles stronger. I know your supposed to eat over maintenance to gain additional weight and muscle together, but if your happy with your weight and want to just gain some muscle, isn't this a logical solution, rather than getting bigger and having to cut excess body fat?

    Everyone wants to get bigger..But, what about an athletic build? How do you get that toned athletic body? It can't be through diet, because they have muscle...Although, it's not body building, because they wouldn't be flexible...Their has to be some middle ground, or supplements, steroids, etc...Otherwise, it just doesn't make too much sense...

    Or, do you HAVE to eat more calories do get stronger and gain muscle? Personally, i don't know if i believe this, because when i first started i weighed 143lbs and i could overhead shoulder press 30lb dumbbells. Now, i can overhead shoulder press 60lb dumbbells in each hand, but only weigh 147lbs. I don't eat over maintenance...I've also increased everything...My squat went from 85 and being sore, to 185 and not being sore...

    Would this be considered newbie gains, or is it possible you can gain muscle without gaining fat slowly...Because i count calories and i am 100% positive i do not eat over maintenance and i do HIIT cardio 2x a week. If i haven't gained muscle, i've obviously gained strength...Is their a difference between strength and muscle?

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  3. #2
    limestix is offline Second Set
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldspice View Post
    I've heard speculation that you can gain muscle, without gaining weight and eating over maintenance. Well, you would gain weight, but very slowly and not much at all. Is this true?

    Apparently, if you eat protein 1g per lb of body weight and a normal diet, you can gain muscle. But, to gain weight/muscle/fat, you have to eat over maintenance. Eating a normal diet will take longer, but you can actually build muscle while eating a normal diet, since you are lifting weights and making your muscles stronger. I know your supposed to eat over maintenance to gain additional weight and muscle together, but if your happy with your weight and want to just gain some muscle, isn't this a logical solution, rather than getting bigger and having to cut excess body fat?
    You can eat under maintenance and build muscle if your genetics lets you, but most people can't. And you do not have to gain fat to gain muscle. If you want to get stronger, while gaining a small amount of muscle, and little to no fat, do a clean bulk, and lift very heavy. Eat only 300-500 calories over maintenance, and do it with clean foods. Aim for 1-2 pounds each month.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldspice View Post
    Everyone wants to get bigger..But, what about an athletic build? How do you get that toned athletic body? It can't be through diet, because they have muscle...Although, it's not body building, because they wouldn't be flexible...Their has to be some middle ground, or supplements, steroids, etc...Otherwise, it just doesn't make too much sense...
    Body building does not make you inflexible. In fact body building has been proven through many studies to increase flexibility. It is through general activity. You can build a lot of muscle without ever hitting a gym. You just need to be very active in something, like a difficult sport, in order to give your muscles stimulation to grow. And most athletes have low bodyfat because they are very active. No steroids or supplements needed.



    Quote Originally Posted by Oldspice View Post
    Or, do you HAVE to eat more calories do get stronger and gain muscle? Personally, i don't know if i believe this, because when i first started i weighed 143lbs and i could overhead shoulder press 30lb dumbbells. Now, i can overhead shoulder press 60lb dumbbells in each hand, but only weigh 147lbs. I don't eat over maintenance...I've also increased everything...My squat went from 85 and being sore, to 185 and not being sore...

    Would this be considered newbie gains, or is it possible you can gain muscle without gaining fat slowly...Because i count calories and i am 100% positive i do not eat over maintenance and i do HIIT cardio 2x a week. If i haven't gained muscle, i've obviously gained strength...Is their a difference between strength and muscle?
    Strength and muscle walk hand in hand, but if you want maximal strength gain for minimal weight gain, take a page out of the power lifters book because they compete for maximum strength at lowest possible weight class.

  4. #3
    malkore is offline Deceptimod
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    and frankly muscle and strength are not synonymous. strength is more about the ability to maximize the muscles force potential by optimally contracting all muscle fibers simultaneously.

    comparing body builders and power lifters is a great way to illustrate this. power lifters have a lot of strength but often appear 'athletic'. Body builders have a lot of muscle mass, and look like He-Man action figures...but they may not necessarily have the strength of a 'smaller' power lifter.

    their goals and workouts/diets are different.

    its the reason some 'wirey' guys can have hellacious strength, and why you sometimes see huge body builders only curling 30lb dumbbells.

    strength has a lot to do with mind/muscle connection. muscle mass helps, but only if your brain can use it

  5. #4
    Oldspice is offline First Set
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    Quote Originally Posted by malkore View Post
    and frankly muscle and strength are not synonymous. strength is more about the ability to maximize the muscles force potential by optimally contracting all muscle fibers simultaneously.

    comparing body builders and power lifters is a great way to illustrate this. power lifters have a lot of strength but often appear 'athletic'. Body builders have a lot of muscle mass, and look like He-Man action figures...but they may not necessarily have the strength of a 'smaller' power lifter.

    their goals and workouts/diets are different.

    its the reason some 'wirey' guys can have hellacious strength, and why you sometimes see huge body builders only curling 30lb dumbbells.

    strength has a lot to do with mind/muscle connection. muscle mass helps, but only if your brain can use it
    Hmm, this is a good point. So basically to get bigger and get bigger arms, i have to eat a lot. (over maintenance, continue lifting and put some fat on) Keeping in mind I'm an endomorph, so i will gain fat in my gut. Although, I'll continue to get stronger and build muscle. If i don't eat over maintenance, I'll continue to get stronger slowly, but my size won't really change, because I'm not supplying my body with enough nutrients. Is this right?

    Lol, i do think it's funny though. (Strength and muscle) Today, i saw this pretty big muscular guy pick up 55lb dumbbells and struggle doing about 8 reps. I know he did 3 sets. It must have looked funny, because my measly 5'7 147lbs came over and did the same exercise and did 60lb dumbbells on the first set doing 12 reps. I bumped up the weight on the next two. That kind of stuff just always confuses me...

  6. #5
    tic
    tic is offline Fourth Set
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    The muscluar guy migh be doing what I am doing, which is glycogen depletion workout so their diet is lacking carbs. Bascially, I am working out with only 50% of my normal weights that i would do and STRUGGLING big time. For example, I was benching 270 lbs with 5 reps at 5 sets and now barley can do 185 with 10-12 reps at 4 sets.

    As for the muscle gain, after you go out of the newbie stage; its pretty hard to gain muscle and not put on fat. So basically, you will have to eat above maintaince. There are tricks to manipulate your diet in a MACRO sense to gain muscle while losing fat or not gaining fat BUT it's strict dieting + excercise with carb cycling, etc... fun stuff.

    Another thing about power-lifting vs bodybuilder. I noticed that when I Power train, I am EXPLODING into my movement vs when I am bodybuilding, my movement is slower and I squeeze and hold. It's a whole different beast from pace/ form/ diet and routine.

  7. #6
    Oldspice is offline First Set
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    Quote Originally Posted by tic View Post
    The muscluar guy migh be doing what I am doing, which is glycogen depletion workout so their diet is lacking carbs. Bascially, I am working out with only 50% of my normal weights that i would do and STRUGGLING big time. For example, I was benching 270 lbs with 5 reps at 5 sets and now barley can do 185 with 10-12 reps at 4 sets.

    As for the muscle gain, after you go out of the newbie stage; its pretty hard to gain muscle and not put on fat. So basically, you will have to eat above maintaince. There are tricks to manipulate your diet in a MACRO sense to gain muscle while losing fat or not gaining fat BUT it's strict dieting + excercise with carb cycling, etc... fun stuff.

    Another thing about power-lifting vs bodybuilder. I noticed that when I Power train, I am EXPLODING into my movement vs when I am bodybuilding, my movement is slower and I squeeze and hold. It's a whole different beast from pace/ form/ diet and routine.

    As of now, i think my best bet is to eat over maintenance, gain some fat and muscle, then cut. Therefore, when i cut i'll have some bigger muscles to show...Rather then if i cut now, i'll have very low body fat, but look like i just got out of pow camp...I can't gain muscle and get low body fat at the same time, so this only makes sense...

  8. #7
    tic
    tic is offline Fourth Set
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    If you are going to excess in calories, just remember that excess of CARBS+FAT will cause the body to retain more of the calories into fat. It's a big recipe. In other word, keep the carbs high and the fat moderate to low while you are trying to gain muscle. Eat 1 to 1.5g of protein per Lean Body Mass, LBM.

  9. #8
    Oldspice is offline First Set
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    Quote Originally Posted by tic View Post
    If you are going to excess in calories, just remember that excess of CARBS+FAT will cause the body to retain more of the calories into fat. It's a big recipe. In other word, keep the carbs high and the fat moderate to low while you are trying to gain muscle. Eat 1 to 1.5g of protein per Lean Body Mass, LBM.
    Really? Hmm...I've been doing this wrong. I've been eating low carbs, high fat and protein...(Good fats)

    I'll have about 100g of carbs a day.

    Should i change this?

  10. #9
    tic
    tic is offline Fourth Set
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    I am not 100% sure on this, double check it but I think its a 40% protein, 30% carbs, and 30% fat diet (good fat), in term of calories. Here is some conversion info:

    Macronutrients Calories
    Per Gram
    Protein 4 calories
    Carbohydrates 4 calories
    Fat 9 calories

    Say you are on a 2,000 calorie diet, its:
    0.40x2000 = 800 calorie / 4 = 200 g of protein (all you really need is 1g protein per 1 lbs LBM)

    With your current 100g of carbs = 400 calories from it; ya, you might want to up that and decrease the fat.

    I am confident that you can figure out the rest but try to keep the fat + carbs balance, I think. Another diet that some use is: 35% protein, 45% carbs, and 20% fats.

  11. #10
    Karky is offline Former member of VulgarityGang
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    Quote Originally Posted by tic View Post
    If you are going to excess in calories, just remember that excess of CARBS+FAT will cause the body to retain more of the calories into fat. It's a big recipe. In other word, keep the carbs high and the fat moderate to low while you are trying to gain muscle. Eat 1 to 1.5g of protein per Lean Body Mass, LBM.
    why does carbs + fat make your body retain more calories into fat than if you ate the same amount of calories low carb or low fat?

  12. #11
    Oldspice is offline First Set
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karky View Post
    why does carbs + fat make your body retain more calories into fat than if you ate the same amount of calories low carb or low fat?
    I think this is somewhat inaccurate...Your body doesn't need carbohydrates and will burn fat if you consume fat. (Ironic) It's proven that people can live on 0g of carbs a day. Although, if you exercise, it's recommended to consume a little bit of carbs for energy.

    I don't see how excess fat, will make you fatter. It makes sense that excess fat + carbs isn't good. Because this assumes most of the carbs will be bad..(no nutritional value)

    Here is more on the subject.

    How Many Carbohydrates Do You Need | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
    Last edited by Oldspice; Jan. 13/09 at 11:48 AM.

  13. #12
    Karky is offline Former member of VulgarityGang
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    well let's see if Tic has a theory. I know what's good and bad, but if Tic knows something I don't, I want to hear about it.

    IMO, too much excess calories is bad, regardless of their source. Fat just gets a bad name because it has more calories per gram than the other macros.

  14. #13
    matt182 is offline Needs to Deload
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldspice View Post
    I think this is somewhat inaccurate...Your body doesn't need carbohydrates and will burn fat if you consume fat. (Ironic) It's proven that people can live on 0g of carbs a day. Although, if you exercise, it's recommended to consume a little bit of carbs for energy.

    I don't see how excess fat, will make you fatter. It makes sense that excess fat + carbs isn't good. Because this assumes most of the carbs will be bad..(no nutritional value)

    Here is more on the subject.

    How Many Carbohydrates Do You Need | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
    That's like saying my car doesn't need unleaded petrol, considering it is designed for it. Sure the car may run, but performance will be decreased and problems with come earlier rather than later.

  15. #14
    tic
    tic is offline Fourth Set
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    Lets get back to the point here though guys. Oldspice, you should intake more carbs. My low carb / low calorie diet is making it hard for me remember everything in detail but carb intake is essential for muscle growth man.

    Extra carbs will first feed/restore glycogen in liver + muslce, then be used for energy, and finally be turned into fat. I am not 100% sure but the muscle want glycogen level to be restored (to what point, I don't know) before it effective build muscle (just my guess).

    As for high carbs+high fat diet = BAD for fat gain, I read that in real text from Lyle Mcdonald. My guess is that once the glycogen level in muscle is restored, the fat consumed will be stored verse extra carbs might be used for energy and that energy might be stored; so the fat skip steps (just my guess on mechanism, but the actual concept is from text).

    Sorry that I cannot give more detailed answer guys, low-carb + glycogen depletion workout is BAD. Anyhow, increase the carb intake bud.. I don't know how you can manage a 100g carb a day diet btw. I am counting carbs and it's hard to get anywhere near 100g; shoot, I'd be happy with 150g carbs. For example, whey protein scope has 4g carbs and banana has 29g carb...

    Try writing down everything, I mean everything that you eat for next 3 days and look up the carb content; you might be surprised. Btw, a large bagel has 79g carbs...

  16. #15
    buzz is offline Verge of Overtraining
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    You can eat under maintenance and build muscle if your genetics lets you, but most people can't.
    genetics has nothing to do with it,you simply cant gain in a defecit,how can you build something out of nothing it isnt physicaly possible.
    do a clean bulk, and lift very heavy. Eat only 300-500 calories over maintenance, and do it with clean foods.
    whats a clean bulk a bulk means eating in exess,wether its 300cls of fat or 300cls of protein its still 300cls exess,and you will gain the same amount of fat by being in that exess.

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