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  1. #1
    lisztian420 is offline Registered User
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    Rest days? Do you take them after weight training?

    Hi,

    Sorry for such a noobie question. I have been working out for a year now. What I have been doing is rather simple. I try to hit the gym 5/6 times a week. Each day I will train on different muscle groups and I always make sure that I give at least 48 hours rest per muscle group. I am just wondering if that is enough rest for my body to rebuild my muscles. Or is it better to have a weight training day follow by a day without any weight training, or two weight training days follow by a day break? Thanx for all your replies.


    Charlie

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  3. #2
    Adler1983 is offline Second Set
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    Charlie:

    The body part split routine that you describe is not the best way to train. Take a look at other posts similar to yours and you'll see that most here suggest full body weight training three times per week.

    While I agree with that, it is my opinion that upper body/lower body split workouts are one of the best splits you can perform.

    Whatever training method you choose, you want to give at least 48 hours of rest to each muscle group. So with Full Body you can try Mon Wed Fri. With an Upper/Lower Split you can try Mon Tues Thurs Fri.

    I take one day off a week and fill the other two days with pilates and cardio.

  4. #3
    buzz is offline Verge of Overtraining
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    agree

  5. #4
    Danger_Dave is offline Verge of Overtraining
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    Good advice

  6. #5
    goergen1 is offline Wearing a Cool Hat
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    This is an interesting question. The answers so far are valid. I come from another route.

    I like to weight train as many days as possible. There are many muscle groups that I will try to train every day. Traps, hamstrings, triceps, general back training.

    I feel spreading the volume out keeps one from ever really over training, there is a huge benefit when it comes to work capacity as well. Which will aid your recovery.

    It does not have to be heavy every day. I have had times where I squatted 6 days a week and more than one time on some of those days.

    I have also found that a huge amount of volume can be trained when not using a heightened mental state. This seems to be more beneficial in many ways compared to having mentally taxing workouts and needing to take days off because of mental over training as opposed to physical over training.

    There is really no best amount of rest. Finding what works best for you is the challenge.

  7. #6
    Adler1983 is offline Second Set
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    I'll never argue with a routine if the person who performs it reports good results. That said, Goergen, while I don't doubt that you find your workouts effective and result producing, I tend to side with exercise science, kineseiology, and physiology.

    While some muscle groups are comprised of differing muscle fibers, both in density and quantity, the majority of exercise and fitness professionals (Read: PhD's, exercise scientists, CSCS, and athletic trainers) support the day off method. What needs to be realized is that growth does not occur in the gym, it occurs during rest.

    But...like I said, if it works for you, I'll never argue with you. I'll only present a more scientifically supported point of view.

  8. #7
    matt182 is offline Needs to Deload
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    I agree with adler.

    Its funny how you mention georgin about "not wanting to overwork the muscles" when in fact thats exactly what your doing.

    It makes sense to have a rest day, it allows the muscle to repair itself. But if you train everyday instead of allowing the muscles to repair itself, it has to source the nutrients that it would otherwise be getting to power the next workout.

    I read an article about NASA funding enourmous amount of money with some top scientists and found resting to be the best way.

  9. #8
    goergen1 is offline Wearing a Cool Hat
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    I tend to side with exercise science, kineseiology, and physiology.
    I have found that science does support this type of training. It is the average person in the academic community that has a hard time thinking outside the box.

    People who understand the value of training often, as well as understand how to adjust the intensity and motivation during different workouts find that over training happens less often this way.

    While some muscle groups are comprised of differing muscle fibers, both in density and quantity, the majority of exercise and fitness professionals (Read: PhD's, exercise scientists, CSCS, and athletic trainers) support the day off method. What needs to be realized is that growth does not occur in the gym, it occurs during rest.
    While the above is true. People do support taking days off. The type of work that leads to over training is different than the type of work that increases work capacity and decreases recovery time since the training of any given muscle is spread out and not condensed within a single workout.

    Training more often also reduces the chance of injury. It has been proven the an increased frequency (as well as the higher training volume that comes with it) of training leads to the greater development of non-contractile and connective tissue.

    Most people have a hard time grasping the concept. Once they do gains from workouts will increase faster than most think possible.

    As an example - Ivan Abadjiev, head coach of the Bulgarian national weightlifting team, had his athletes maxing the Olympic lifts on a daily basis. The difference is that they use a "gym max" or a "max of the day." Not a true max. Training for that day was based off of the max for the day.

    During his time as coach the Bulgarian weightlifting team was the most dominating team in the world.

    I know that these are elite athletes and not the average person. The point is that sooner or later a trainee will learn how to train more frequently and at a higher training volume. The only question is when that should happen.

    After 17 years of training I believe that training more frequently should be implemented with beginners because it gives them a base of work capacity as well as more reps at a lower intensity in which they will be able to focus on proper form.

    This is hardly a complete explanation. If more is needed just let me know.

  10. #9
    bipennate is offline Second Set
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    Dual-factor theory at it's best...however, i think that you should qualify what you're saying, G, because it could be misinterpreted...people have a tendency to pick up and run with stuff that they don't fully grasp, unfortunately.

    In a nutshell, though:
    Frequency, volume, and intensity are 3 variables to be manipulated through the training cycle. Rest can be absolute (complete day off) or relative (low intensity). This is the basic concept behind periodization and planned overreaching...however, this doesn't mean that you can just get up and start training every day, either. You have to understand how to control the variables of the training stimulus to get it to work properly without producing overtraining, cumulative trauma cycles, protein deficiencies, etc, etc.

    In other words, you do need rest...you just need to qualify what kind of rest is actually needed. Someone who understands these variables can make great gains through their manipulation.

    I'd get more specific, but I need to go to sleep!

  11. #10
    bipennate is offline Second Set
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    Looking over my last post, I don't think that I made my point clear enough:

    I agree with G in principle; however, I don't think that it's a technique that a beginner should use simply because he/she won't understand how to use it...G isn't making it up: high frequency, low intensity, med-high volume can have it's place in a training cycle (hell, it basically describes what cardio is, if you think about it). But without a qualified "coach," I wouldn't tell someone to do it...they'll just end up overtraining.

  12. #11
    buzz is offline Verge of Overtraining
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    Quote Originally Posted by bipennate View Post
    Looking over my last post, I don't think that I made my point clear enough:

    I agree with G in principle; however, I don't think that it's a technique that a beginner should use simply because he/she won't understand how to use it...G isn't making it up: high frequency, low intensity, med-high volume can have it's place in a training cycle (hell, it basically describes what cardio is, if you think about it). But without a qualified "coach," I wouldn't tell someone to do it...they'll just end up overtraining.
    spot on BIP.
    gorgeon you obviously know what you are doing,and i agree with your point,but as BIP said telling someone who is not as knowledgable would probably give them the green light to go and hammer every session every day,when there routine to train every day needs to be carfully planed,ie light/heavy days, sets spread out over the week,etc,as you have already said.
    here is somthing from the HST board that basicly gives backing to you theory.
    Title: Effects of a 7-day eccentric training period on muscle damage and inflammation.

    Researchers: Chen TC, Hsieh SS.

    Institution: Department of Ball-Related Sports Science, Taipei Physical Education College, Taipei City, Taiwan.

    Source: Medicine and Science Sports & Exercise 2001 Oct;33(10):1732-8

    Purpose: This study examined the effects of a 7-day repeated maximal isokinetic eccentric training period on the indicators of muscle damage and inflammatory response.

    Methods: Twenty-two college-age males were randomly assigned to eccentric training (ET) and control groups (CON). The initial exercise was 30 repetitions of maximal voluntary isokinetic eccentric contraction (ECC1) on non-dominant elbow flexors with Cybex 6000 at 60 degrees.s-1 angular velocity. The ET group performed the same exercise for the following 6 consecutive days (referred to as ECC2 to ECC7) after ECC1. Upper arm circumference (CIR), range of motion (ROM), and maximal isometric force (MIF) were measured before, immediately after, and every 24 h for 7 consecutive days after ECC1. Plasma creatine kinase (CK), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), glutamic oxaloacetate transaminase (GOT), leukocyte counts, and serum interleukin-1beta and -6 (IL-1beta, IL-6) levels were assessed before; at 2 h; and at 1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 d after ECC1. Muscle soreness was measured before and for 7 consecutive days after ECC1.

    Results: The ECC1 produced significant changes in most of the measures for both groups, with the exception of leukocyte counts. No indicators of increased damage were found from the second consecutive day of eccentric training to the 7th day for the eccentric training group.

    Conclusion: Continuous intensive isokinetic eccentric training performed with damaged muscles did not exacerbate muscle damage and inflammation after ECC1. In addition, a muscular "adaptation effect" may occur as early as 24 h after ECC1, as shown by the ET group's performance for 6 consecutive days after ECC1.

    Discussion: One of the most controversial aspects of HST is the suggestion that people train in a predominantly eccentric fashion for two weeks straight. Heresy! they shout. Then when you ask them why it's so bad to train a muscle more frequently or, heaven forbid, do negatives two workouts in a row, they say because your muscle can't "recover" that fast. This study calls into question the belief that muscles can't recover if trained again soon or even the next day.

    They looked at a wide variety of markers for muscle damage including plasma creatine kinase (CK), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), glutamic oxaloacetate transaminase (GOT), leukocyte counts, and serum interleukin-1beta and -6 (IL-1beta, IL-6). Although both groups experienced a significant change in all these indicators (accept leukocyte count), no indicators of increased damage were found from ECC2 to ECC7 for the ET group.

    What about soreness? For both the group who only did one training session as well as those who did seven in a row, muscle soreness developed 1 day after the first eccentric training bout, and remained through the 3rd day, then gradually diminished regardless of which group they were in. The group that did the eccentric sets every day experienced the same progression and subsidence of soreness as the group that did only one set at the beginning of the week. The soreness level was almost back to baseline on 7 day for both groups.

    The results of this investigation indicated that repeated bouts of the eccentric exercise performed on each of the following 6 days after the first bout did not affect recovery from the first training bout. This is in agreement with a substantial amount of other studies indicating that muscle adapts effectively to physical load even when the loading is frequent or even continuous. Keep in mind that we are only talking about the physical recovery of the muscle. We are not talking about performance. After all, HST is "Hypertrophy-Specific" by design.

  13. #12
    matt182 is offline Needs to Deload
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    Quote Originally Posted by bipennate View Post
    Looking over my last post, I don't think that I made my point clear enough:

    I agree with G in principle; however, I don't think that it's a technique that a beginner should use simply because he/she won't understand how to use it...G isn't making it up: high frequency, low intensity, med-high volume can have it's place in a training cycle (hell, it basically describes what cardio is, if you think about it). But without a qualified "coach," I wouldn't tell someone to do it...they'll just end up overtraining.
    Surely you understand for maximising hypertrophy let along strength signifies a greater need than " low intensity".

    is it not

    high frequency, low intensity, med-high volume does not sound to realistic either for a novice/intermediete. 5/7 days a week 1/2 hours a day is certainly not optimal.
    Last edited by matt182; Aug. 17/07 at 01:31 AM. Reason: sp

  14. #13
    bipennate is offline Second Set
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt182 View Post
    Surely you understand for maximising hypertrophy let along strength signifies a greater need than " low intensity".

    is it not

    high frequency, low intensity, med-high volume does not sound to realistic either for a novice/intermediete. 5/7 days a week 1/2 hours a day is certainly not optimal.
    I didn't say that the approach should be the training cycle, I said that it can have its place in the training cycle...it can be part of it with very good results. Further, a week long alteration of volume/intensity, as shown by the study above, can be an effective approach for hypertrophy within a planned overreach. You have to understand that the physiology doesn't change, but our ability to manipulate it with better techniques and training approaches does.

    I should note that I used the term "intensity" to describe the weights used (which is the standard definition assumed by the NSCA)...that doesn't necessarily mean "easy," just higher rep.

  15. #14
    goergen1 is offline Wearing a Cool Hat
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    But without a qualified "coach,"
    This is a good point. I believe of course that anyone who wants to make good progress should constantly be seeking the help of good trainers and coaches.

    I don't think that it's a technique that a beginner should use simply because he/she won't understand how to use it.
    We still need to expose people to training techniques that are both effective and different from the norm.

    On a side note. When I just started training (a while ago) I stumbled upon this technique quite by accident. I attribute my higher work capacity today (much higher than almost all of my training partners) to building a base with this technique over the first 3 - 4 years of training.

    Since then I have used this technique with most of my personal training clients and athletes to great success.

    So think it is possible for beginners to use. Some will figure it out and some won't. (others will have a good trainer or coach)

    but as BIP said telling someone who is not as knowledgable would probably give them the green light to go and hammer every session every day
    The only way to become more knowledgeable is to learn form people who have done different things and try different training systems themselves.

    Dropping the hammer every session will end up being a great learning experience.

    To explain the use of this method better.

    A trainee might have "heavy," "light," and "Power" days. The initial exercises (the first one or 2) may rotate body parts over the days since they can be higher intensity, and require more mental focus to complete.

    The assistance exercises used after the "goal of the day" exercises can be done at a rapid pace with high volume, focusing on work not weight. This can be anywhere from 3 - 12 exercises. Assistance exercises done this way can be done on a daily basis as well as on "off" days.

    For example. At the beginning of my training my coach would have me do clean & jerk, high pulls, and squats. He would then tell me that my training was finished. (which meant that was all he was taking me through)

    After that I would do 5 - 12 exercises for a few sets each. Using weight that is not particularly heavy, and just getting work done.

    I would do this on a daily basis. I still use this method, with some modifications that fit what I do better now.

    You can have the traditional push / pull days or OL days. The assistance exercises are filler between days and after the main "body" of the workout. They are used to bring up weaker areas without over training as well as to increase the training effect of the "main" exercises.

    So if your weak low body areas are low back and hamstrings. A couple exercises will be chosen that will be done every training day. The same is true for weaker upper body ares. Upper back and triceps for example, A couple of exercises for each can be done.

    The above will amount to 6 - 8 exercises for the training of weaker or lagging areas. Which will be done at the end of all workouts as well as on "off" days.

    I do believe that one or two days "off" every 7 - 10 days from any type of training are needed. I am not saying train 365 days per year with no days off.

    I think that many people look at training methods that are "different" and dismiss them as less effective, without looking deeper into the situation. I think that the concept can be a little challenging some some people to grasp at first, and that is why it is met with resistance.

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